Saxon culture

[Theddude]

If you can read and understand Norwegian this is an interesting read of what I believe is on topic.

English is a Scandinavian language!

That was a really fascinating article, as a student of linguistics, although I'm not quite convinced yet. It is a very real possibility though, just needs to be more concretely proven

I agree. The language, military, names, styles of nobility, and even the genetic makeup of both the elite and the people (particularly in the north and east) of eleventh century England were so heavily influenced by the Danes that it seems reasonable to lump Saxon culture in with the Norse. I'd even argue that it makes perfect sense that a Scandinavian ruling England should have an easier time of it than any Frenchman or Fleming. Better the devil you know, and all that.

I've dissolved West Germanic in my own game and put English in the Latin group (given the "English" represented in the game are essentially Anglo-Norman), Dutch in with Central Germanic, and Saxon in North Germanic.

It would make more sense to dissolve Central Germanic and use West Germanic for the same purpose, as it would then line up with the linguistic classification of it but other than that I completely agree that that makes sense.

Old English isn't so hart to understand for us. This is a funny fact. The other Germanic languages can better understand Old English then Englishspeakers can understand it.

It's a real shame, too. England had the misfortune of the Normans' attempt at linguistic genocide, so us native speakers have lost such a massive portion of our language (tongue), seeing as our vocabulary (wordstock, I should say) and only about a quarter of our vocabulary is actually Germanic! I'm trying to learn Old English myself, it's a much better language than MnE for sure, but it's slow going seeing how it's quite a bit harder.

That said, German, Dutch and Saxon should be West Germanic and English should be moved to the Latin group. It basically represents Anglo-Norman culture which was more Norman than English anyways, the nobility didn't actually start speaking English until the end of the period (barely then, too), so it makes more sense that they would be tied to France culturally.

 

[Velorian]

It's a real shame, too. England had the misfortune of the Normans' attempt at linguistic genocide, so us native speakers have lost such a massive portion of our language (tongue), seeing as our vocabulary (wordstock, I should say) and only about a quarter of our vocabulary is actually Germanic! I'm trying to learn Old English myself, it's a much better language than MnE for sure, but it's slow going seeing how it's quite a bit harder.

That said, German, Dutch and Saxon should be West Germanic and English should be moved to the Latin group. It basically represents Anglo-Norman culture which was more Norman than English anyways, the nobility didn't actually start speaking English until the end of the period (barely then, too), so it makes more sense that they would be tied to France culturally.

In my opinion English being in the Latin group (not necessarily a bad idea) is way more of a stretch than a melting pot converting them to a new Norse-English culture in the North Germanic group. English was still quite different from proper Latin, but Old English and Old Norse were quite similar both culturally and linguistically.

 

[Theddude]

In my opinion English being in the Latin group (not necessarily a bad idea) is way more of a stretch than a melting pot converting them to a new Norse-English culture in the North Germanic group. English was still quite different from proper Latin, but Old English and Old Norse were quite similar both culturally and linguistically.

Like I said, English as a language isn't necessarily the only thing to consider. English culture after the Conquest was basically permanently sundered from the rest of the Germanic world and placed firmly in the sphere of the French/Latin group. The Hundred Years War is probably the best example of this, and basically if the Saxons haven't regained power by the time the event fires, their culture and ties to Scandinavia and Germany are basically doomed. The ties to French and Latin still persist to this day, I would imagine if you asked the average person on the street today they'd probably tell you that English is based on Latin (false of course, despite how hard 18th century academics tried :laugh. English in the Latin group would allow the English to fight for France as they did historically on better grounds, and their eviction from West Germanic would allow German to be properly placed in there (I don't know why they aren't even with English being in there, quite honestly).

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

If this were the 700s or 800s, I would agree... but they've drifted from their Scandinavian cousins quiet a bit by 1066. Even so, I can see the argument both ways. They are all Germanic peoples, and the Saxons originally hail from lands smack dab between the Danish and Germans.

But you also have to keep in mind gameplay purposes. By being West Germanic, the Saxons are more prone to try and throw off Norwegian oppressors, and do the same for the Normans until they convert to English, which gives them the smaller of the foreigner penalties. And let's be honest, the English should never be labelled as "North Germanic". PI has done similar with putting Basque in the Iberian culture (because they'd be absolutely boned if they were more accurately placed in their own group) and in EUIII by labeling the Hungarians as "West Slavic".

All of this is a moot point, however, as Wikipedia designates the Saxons as a West Germanic tribe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germanic_tribes

And as we all know, Wikipedia never lies and is 100% accurate.

How is it not accurate ? Ptolemys' descriptions are challenged.
The saxons were all over the place from the northern shores down to nowadays saxony and franconia and who actually knows if they were one single tribe or a tribe that combined many others ?

Not that i actually care, but i'm annoyed with Wiki-bashing. To question science or available knowledge is needed, so why don't you take part in Wikipedia....there's always a discussion page.
The old encyclopedias weren't always correct either.

edit: Sorry for the rant. o

 

[KylesWorld]

i.e.
Mansion (maison - French for House)
House (Haus - German for House)
Cottage (I think the Norse for house is Cotte or something like that)

Kinda way off topic here but if anyone knows the answer to my below question it would help me out. It relates somewhat to the above.

I had assumed the Old English word for House/Estate/Manor/Homestead was "Ham" (modern English it's still used somewhat in "Hamlet" to describe a small dwelling or villiage without a church or does "Ham" simply mean village/town? A lot of English Surnames and Locations in Southeast and Midlands incorporates Ham - (Nottingham/Birmingham even SoutHAMpton/NortHAMpton though the latter may be just a coincidence) etc.. So i'd assumed the origion would have been in Old English though i'm suspecting this is more from the Northwest Germanic language. Especially after looking around for a holiday and stumbled across a City of Hamm in Germany near the border with the Netherlands/Belgium.

Surnames in particular i'd thought meant example: Robert xxxxxxham was Robert of the house by or in a xxxxxx/location or does it mean Robert from 'xxxxxx' village? My family name is not a town/village and i'd read it was an Old Saxon word meaning wood/forest so the "ham" meant example my christian name: Kyle "of/from" the House/village (ham) by the Wood (xxxxxx). Which was shortend to "Xxxxxxham" to form the Surname.

Is the "ham" component of these locations/names Saxon in origin or Old English? As the -by (as in Derby) is Danish in origin. I figure you guys on this forum would probably have a good idea on the origin. If I've gotten it completely wrong also, please let me know. I'm piecing it together from snippets of what i've read and common sense so nothing really concrete.

Reason for my asking is my mother has gotten all nostalgic in her old age and is looking back through family history and i'd told her the "ham" in our surname was old english but I think I may have just told her a big fat lie. Being Australian and living in China, my knowledge of the Germanic languages is not terribly extensive so if anyone can let me know the origin of the "Ham" that is so prevelent in English locations and surnames i can help the old girl out on her family ancestory fixation she's currently on.

Sorry to go waaaaaay off topic here but if anyone knows can you help me out as I think I may have set my mum down the wrong path.... She has just retired and has all the time in the world so is bugging me almost daily about this.. Help me, please!!

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Not sure, just guessing taht it derives from "Heim" = Home, spoken "Haam".

Wikipedia gives several assumptions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_(place)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ham#Old_English

 

[Therion]

I had assumed the Old English word for House/Estate/Manor/Homestead was "Ham" (modern English it's still used somewhat in "Hamlet" to describe a small dwelling or villiage without a church or does "Ham" simply mean village/town? A lot of English Surnames and Locations in Southeast and Midlands incorporates Ham - (Nottingham/Birmingham even SoutHAMpton/NortHAMpton though the latter may be just a coincidence) etc.. So i'd assumed the origion would have been in Old English though i'm suspecting this is more from the Northwest Germanic language. Especially after looking around for a holiday and stumbled across a City of Hamm in Germany near the border with the Netherlands/Belgium.

'Ham' is Old English for estate/dwelling/property. It goes back to Proto-Germanic so all the other Germanic language have cognates of some form e.g. Norse 'heimr', German 'heim', Dutch 'heem', etc.

'Hamlet' is Anglo-Norman and derives from Old French 'hamel' (meaning basically the same thing), which in turn derived from Frankish (another Germanic language). So 'ham' and 'hamlet' share the same roots but 'hamlet' entered English later on via Norman.

Surnames in particular i'd thought meant example: Robert xxxxxxham was Robert of the house by or in a xxxxxx/location or does it mean Robert from 'xxxxxx' village? My family name is not a town/village and i'd read it was an Old Saxon word meaning wood/forest so the "ham" meant example my christian name: Kyle "of/from" the House/village (ham) by the Wood (xxxxxx). Which was shortend to "Xxxxxxham" to form the Surname.

I believe both are correct; it just depends on the case. For instance, Beckham referred to someone from the homestead of Becca while Waltham referred to someone from the dwelling by the wood.

 

[KylesWorld]

@Therion/Aardvark: Thanks for the above guys, that'll keep the old girl happy for a little bit. I think I've narrowed down the first written record and location attached to the name for her though variations in the spelling i guess can be attributed to the interpretation of the scribes who wrote them down at the time. Thanks again guys and sorry for hijacking the thread..

 

[Rabid Bogling]

There were several words meaning house or home in Old English, with dialectic and period variations. The clearest and most obvious form, though, was simply hús. Though hous, hus, and probably several other spellings were used too. Ham meant settlement in a fairly broad sense, much like town today. It's worth bearing in mind that names change. Letters are dropped and exchanged, vowels are shifted, and transliteration can occur. So if you can't find a clear origin that may be the reason why.

 

[Spartanlemur]

Surely the fact that they ARE North Germanic, geographically speaking counts for something? The fact that the pre-Norman English culture is a combination of Jute, Angle and Saxon implies that it is more or less Danish, and therefore should without a doubt be the same culture group.

 

[Wallain]

Personally I did the following in my own mod:

- Merged Norwegian, Danish and Swedish into one culture 'Norse' (A bit like German being one culture)
- Kept Saxon as a West Germanic culture
- Let the settlers event work for Norse lieges with Saxon land.
- Make the culture conversion event happen more swiftly for Saxon land with a Norse ruler.

And it works quite well I find. It is not too quick and it is not silly.