Saxon culture

[Velorian]

Seeing as Old English is mutually intelligible with Old Norse it seems reasonable to me that in a scenario where Norway/Denmark wins against the Normans and Saxons and maintains rule for another century or so, that Saxon culture begins to switch to a melting pot culture much closer to Norse than the English they historically developed.

The ck2plus mod features the melting pot culture "Anglo-Norse" which is a mixture of Saxon and Norse, in the mod that culture is still West Germanic, but I switched it to North Germanic because I thought it would make more sense in that scenario.

As far as I've understood Saxon culture back before the invasion, it seemed very similar to Scandinavian culture at the time, aside from the language similarities they've been mingling and interacting for centuries. It seems logical to me that provided England was held for a long time, culture might change sufficiently that it would be as close to the Scandinavian cultures as for instance Iceland (I know they are also Norse). Wouldn't that be a realistic alternate history development?

 

[NewbieOne]

All Germanic languages may've been mutually intelligible at that point. In fact, Crimean Goths' language was understandable to a German speaker in the 16th century. This said, Old English is West Germanic, like Frisian (Dutch is the closest to English nowadays).

 

[King Size]

Would you then say Dutch as a language was in this great mix of people understanding each other?( I'm not stating n
anything, I'm asking cause I don't know.)

I'm not completely sure what you're saying, but German and Dutch was relatively close. Many words even today, look like the same. As a German speaker, I would say that Dutch looked liked a German having a hard time pronouncing the words correct. Most Germanic languages were closely related to each and I guess most people at that time understood what Germanic people said.

Seeing as Old English is mutually intelligible with Old Norse it seems reasonable to me that in a scenario where Norway/Denmark wins against the Normans and Saxons and maintains rule for another century or so, that Saxon culture begins to switch to a melting pot culture much closer to Norse than the English they historically developed.

The ck2plus mod features the melting pot culture "Anglo-Norse" which is a mixture of Saxon and Norse, in the mod that culture is still West Germanic, but I switched it to North Germanic because I thought it would make more sense in that scenario.

As far as I've understood Saxon culture back before the invasion, it seemed very similar to Scandinavian culture at the time, aside from the language similarities they've been mingling and interacting for centuries. It seems logical to me that provided England was held for a long time, culture might change sufficiently that it would be as close to the Scandinavian cultures as for instance Iceland (I know they are also Norse). Wouldn't that be a realistic alternate history development?

I support this idea, it seems very reasonable, as the Norse language already played a major role in Danelagen, which was the Danish occupied territory of England. However, I think that the culture should switch into English with North Germanic culture instead of a culture called Anglo-Norse. It was called Englaland at that time, so living in the Kingdom of England would probably have people making them identify themselves with English people, just not the Norman variant

 

[Gingerninja]

I like the idea of a second version of English, though as the king of Norway I'd rather have them be Norwegian. The duke of Normandy makes England his main title, thus the idea of making that English isn't that bad as it's profitable for him to turn English as well. A Norwegian ruler would rather have everyone be Norwegian.
I'm still of the impression the Anglo-saxons were very closely related to Scandinavians, thus thinking making them Northern Germanic would make sense. Though if it has a big impact on gameplay in a negative way, then maybe not. I haven't tried so I don't know.

 

[Isaios]

The impact isn't negative as long as you're playing Norway and won, but it's quite imba. But a second English that's in the North Germanic group is actualy kinda brilliant. I like that plan. ^^

 

[Caramel95]

The Danes who invaded England actually assimilated very quickly due to the similarities of their language and old English.

The town i live in, in the UK was actually founded by Danes because of its strategic place as a port. But anyway i agree with GingerNinja, Throughout history England has been heavily influenced by the constant pillaging from Scandinavian countries and northern Germany so its only logic to give England, Scandinavia and Northern Germany a similiar culture group name like ' Anglo Germanic' 'Scandinavian Germanic' and 'Germanic' something along that line. Even to this day the german and English language are very similiar.

 

[unmerged(70013)]

My understanding was that Old English and what we now know as Old Low German were mutually intelligible rather than Old English and Old Norse (which I think had only just split into a Norwegian and a Danish/Swedish language at that point). In fact if we're to go by wikipedia it looks like Old English and Old Low German were more mutually intelligible than Old Low German and Old High German which had just undergone a vowel shift. Maybe the British and Continental Saxons ought to have their own little culture group pre-Norman invasion? Might make the HRE more interesting too.

 

[Gingerninja]

If you can read and understand Norwegian this is an interesting read of what I believe is on topic.

English is a Scandinavian language!

 

[Bob_the_Insane]

Throwing my less educated opinion in the ring, I always thought that English formed out of the merger of Saxon (Germanic), Danish/Norse and French... I don't know if any of the old Celtic or Latin stuff from pre-Saxon times survives in the modern language...

It is one of the reasons we often have often have two or three words for the same thing. i.e. Sick (Germanic), Ill (Norse), Malady (French)...

Usually the French origin word is the "posh" one...

i.e.
Mansion (maison - French for House)
House (Haus - German for House)
Cottage (I think the Norse for house is Cotte or something like that)

I know practically nothing about Old English but I would guess it is just the state of English before the introduction of French?

 

[Sleight of Hand]

It's a real shame the Saxon Revolt isn't represented. I dislike the uniform German culture.

 

[Rabid Bogling]

I agree. The language, military, names, styles of nobility, and even the genetic makeup of both the elite and the people (particularly in the north and east) of eleventh century England were so heavily influenced by the Danes that it seems reasonable to lump Saxon culture in with the Norse. I'd even argue that it makes perfect sense that a Scandinavian ruling England should have an easier time of it than any Frenchman or Fleming. Better the devil you know, and all that.

I've dissolved West Germanic in my own game and put English in the Latin group (given the "English" represented in the game are essentially Anglo-Norman), Dutch in with Central Germanic, and Saxon in North Germanic.

 

[thekinguter]

Anglo Saxon or Old English is a West Germanic language, just like Dutch. Thus it made sense for Paradox to put both of these in the West Germanic culture group. Norse is a North Germanic language, different from West Germanic. Sure, both are germanic so they have common roots. But changing it would be essentially lieing.

I will now mod my game. English going to the latin group makes sense for the norman thing and the 100 yr war. Saxon and the norse should be close.

 

[Bob_the_Insane]

Maybe making "Anglo-Saxon" and "Saxon" as separate but related cultures, with the English starting as Anglo-Saxon rather than Saxon. And creating "English" out of the combination of "Anglo-Saxon" and "Norman"...

It is probably fair to differentiate the Saxons that remained behind to become part of Charlemagne's empire than the ones that existed in the Celtic/Latin/Germanic/Danish melting pot that was Britain for 300 years or so.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Maybe making "Anglo-Saxon" and "Saxon" as separate but related cultures, with the English starting as Anglo-Saxon rather than Saxon. And creating "English" out of the combination of "Anglo-Saxon" and "Norman"...

It is probably fair to differentiate the Saxons that remained behind to become part of Charlemagne's empire than the ones that existed in the Celtic/Latin/Germanic/Danish melting pot that was Britain for 300 years or so.

Of course, and whilst this probably should have been done from the start, it certainly won't ever happen now.

 

[Thure]

Anglo Saxon or Old English is a West Germanic language, just like Dutch. Thus it made sense for Paradox to put both of these in the West Germanic culture group. Norse is a North Germanic language, different from West Germanic. Sure, both are germanic so they have common roots. But changing it would be essentially lieing.

I will now mod my game. English going to the latin group makes sense for the norman thing and the 100 yr war. Saxon and the norse should be close.

No. Dutch is a Francian language, and English is a North Sea Germanic/Ingvaeonic language. Dutch is closer to German then to English. Low German and Frisian are closer to English then to German.

 

[A_Dane]

If you can read and understand Norwegian this is an interesting read of what I believe is on topic.

English is a Scandinavian language!

That was an interesting read, and some interesting arguments, though I'm not really interested in linguistics

 

[unmerged(431840)]

I'd just like to point out that language and culture are not the same thing. There is a strong correlation, but they are not quite the same.

Gingerninja, that's an interesting link (I had google translate it). I only know English and when I see Old English I can't understand any of it. When I see Modern Norwegian I can sometimes figure it out. So at least in terms of spelling Modern English is closer to Modern Norwegian than Modern English is to Old English.

 

[Gingerninja]

I think they're VERY related, especially in this game where cultural differences change your relation with others. Seeing that automatic relation hit could be argued to be difficulties in communicating. If they practically speak the same language, there won't be much of that.

Plus, even though culture and language are different things, I dare say the culture is very much the same. The feudal system wasn't implemented in England till after the Duke of Normandy, who created the system to mirror that of the French, plus he was technically still a vassal of the French king. The saxons used the exact same system as the Scandinavians which is why they all start with Elective Succession. I also believe that the king who ruled one or two terms before Harold Godwinson was in fact Danish.(Needs double checking, correct me if I'm wrong)

Not to begin with the strong seafaring traditional similarities. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Thure]

I'd just like to point out that language and culture are not the same thing. There is a strong correlation, but they are not quite the same.

Ingame... Yes this is the point. This is why in my mod Langobardic is in the Italic group... There cultural closer to the Italians and speek a Germanic language.

Gingerninja, that's an interesting link (I had google translate it). I only know English and when I see Old English I can't understand any of it. When I see Modern Norwegian I can sometimes figure it out. So at least in terms of spelling Modern English is closer to Modern Norwegian than Modern English is to Old English.

The same with German or better Low German. Old English isn't so hart to understand for us. This is a funny fact. The other Germanic languages can better understand Old English then Englishspeakers can understand it.

 

[magritte2]

Ingame... Yes this is the point. This is why in my mod Langobardic is in the Italic group... There cultural closer to the Italians and speek a Germanic language.



The same with German or better Low German. Old English isn't so hart to understand for us. This is a funny fact. The other Germanic languages can better understand Old English then Englishspeakers can understand it.

I think it's just a function of many other languages being more conservative than English. I remember thinking that, even with my limited French, written Norman French was easier for me to read than old English. Anyway, I know that conventional wisdom is that low German/Frisian is supposed to be the closest relative to English linguistically. As to culture...well, all the Germanic tribes shared a lot of cultural traits, and it's true that there were a couple of generations of Danish Kings. But it seems to me the Anglo Saxon chronicle (not an expert hear, so if I'm wrong, feel free to enlighten), did view them as distinctly diffferent people.

Was Langobardic still widely spoken in the CK2 timeframe? I thought the Lombards moved to a latin-based language even faster than the Franks.