Saxon culture

[Gingerninja]

From what I've gathered, the saxons of England and other Scandinavians in general had similar enough languages to be mutually intelligible. Thus, I dare say they would be very closely related culturally as well, seeing that the Ango-Saxons came from Denmark/Northern Germany. Would it then be unheard of to change them over to be in the same culture group as the rest of the Scandinavians, namely Northern Germanic?

 

[Tempestra]

They're closer to Germans and Dutch than they are to Scandinavians, so West Germanic seems more appropriate. I don't think Saxon and Danish or Norwegian would have been mutually intelligible beyond a few shared words.

 

[Zhetone]

They're closer to Germans and Dutch than they are to Scandinavians, so West Germanic seems more appropriate. I don't think Saxon and Danish or Norwegian would have been mutually intelligible beyond a few shared words.

The Danes who invaded England actually assimilated very quickly due to the similarities of their language and old English.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Given that the Anglo-Saxons came to England in the 5th century, they're about as closely related to 1066 Germans and Norwegians as they are to el Cid. And I think that 3 centuries of being pillaged by the Vikings should disqualify them from belonging to the same culture as Scandinavians.

EDIT: And re: language, I don't see anyone clamoring for putting Vlachs and Castilians into the same language group.

 

[Ols]

It is easier for a Norwegian to understand Old English than it is for an English person. However, it would not be logical to place Saxon is North Germanic just as much as it would be illogical to categorise modern English as a Romance language just because it has Latin influences. Anglo-Saxon through to English is West Germanic, and it would take a radical change in the form of the language for it to be anything else.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

11th century Anglo-Saxon culture already encompasses a great deal of Scandinavian influence, and this ought to be evident in the names. It's not the same as the narrower Saxon culture of the 5th and 6th centuries.

 

[Comradebot]

If this were the 700s or 800s, I would agree... but they've drifted from their Scandinavian cousins quiet a bit by 1066. Even so, I can see the argument both ways. They are all Germanic peoples, and the Saxons originally hail from lands smack dab between the Danish and Germans.

But you also have to keep in mind gameplay purposes. By being West Germanic, the Saxons are more prone to try and throw off Norwegian oppressors, and do the same for the Normans until they convert to English, which gives them the smaller of the foreigner penalties. And let's be honest, the English should never be labelled as "North Germanic". PI has done similar with putting Basque in the Iberian culture (because they'd be absolutely boned if they were more accurately placed in their own group) and in EUIII by labeling the Hungarians as "West Slavic".

All of this is a moot point, however, as Wikipedia designates the Saxons as a West Germanic tribe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germanic_tribes

And as we all know, Wikipedia never lies and is 100% accurate.

 

[Zhetone]

The only thing that really bothers me about it is that you can't form Britannia as a Norwegian ruler. Sure, it makes some logical sense, but if I succeed in invading England as Harald and then wish to separate my English holdings under a Norwegian king, after which I want to form Britannia, why can't I? It also sucks for the Norwegians of the north who have something of a chance of uniting the Isles. I realize having two "Norwegian/Scandinavian" empires seems a bit stupid, but still...

 

[brxbrx]

The game needs Venn culture

 

[Ols]

This game needs some kind of Norse-British culture, yes. A Norway-England personal union should break relatively quickly and leave a North Germanic dynasty in power that eventually becomes a distinct culture that can form Brittannia.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

This game needs some kind of Norse-British culture, yes.

Do you mean Norse-Saxon? It already exists, which is why you have characters with names like Beorn, Siward, Magnus and Sveyn. These aren't traditional Saxon names.

 

[Isaios]

I used to agree that Saxon should be North Germanic, but the gameplay changes too radically by the change. I just changed it and saw what happened. The Norwegian post-conquest situation becomes far too easy. And they gain far too many levies.

As for forming Britannia, I'd be entirely happy with that only happening if the ruler has changed to Saxon culture. Seems logical to me.

 

[Zhetone]

I used to agree that Saxon should be North Germanic, but the gameplay changes too radically by the change. I just changed it and saw what happened. The Norwegian post-conquest situation becomes far too easy. And they gain far too many levies.

As for forming Britannia, I'd be entirely happy with that only happening if the ruler has changed to Saxon culture. Seems logical to me.

And if, with the quirky mechanics in-game, England assimilates after some time and is Norwegian?
The Saxons were already quite adept at assimilating other cultures into their own, such as what they did with the Normans. If the Norwegians invade, shouldn't their cultures mix and become dominant, such as with what happens with the Normans? And it would probably happen even quicker, considering both cultures/languages are Germanic. It would at least make a decent mod.

 

[Moltke]

There should be more cultures. It seems odd making German some monolithic culture in the game, but then treating the English/Saxon/Norman dynamic as if it is some kind of heavenly miracle that needs specific intervention via event.

 

[King Size]

From what I've gathered, the saxons of England and other Scandinavians in general had similar enough languages to be mutually intelligible. Thus, I dare say they would be very closely related culturally as well, seeing that the Ango-Saxons came from Denmark/Northern Germany. Would it then be unheard of to change them over to be in the same culture group as the rest of the Scandinavians, namely Northern Germanic?

I studied the English language a bit and thus also Old English. The most appropriate thing would be to let Saxon culture stay West Germanic. However, Saxons and Norse people understood each other quite well. The language at that time, was probably what Danish and Swedish are today. Sometimes we understand each other, sometimes we don't and other times the meaning of a word, can be differently understood in the two languages. My conclusion is that it would be best to let Saxon stay as Western Germanic, it is the most appropriate, also taken in consideration that they are decedents of mostly Dutch, German and a few Juttish settlers.

 

[Gingerninja]

I still think they were mutually intelligible seeing as the main form of transport was by the sea/at least for Norway) making a trip over to England seem like something one would do whenever. If you read some of the Icelandic sagas, stories set after the year 900, the characters didn't seem to have any trouble speaking with each other. In Gunnlaug Ormtunge, the main character, Gunnlaug, actually joins the Hird of the Saxon king during the Danish invasion.

I studied the English language a bit and thus also Old English. The most appropriate thing would be to let Saxon culture stay West Germanic. However, Saxons and Norse people understood each other quite well. The language at that time, was probably what Danish and Swedish are today. Sometimes we understand each other, sometimes we don't and other times the meaning of a word, can be differently understood in the two languages. My conclusion is that it would be best to let Saxon stay as Western Germanic, it is the most appropriate, also taken in consideration that they are decedents of mostly Dutch, German and a few Juttish settlers.

Would you then say Dutch as a language was in this great mix of people understanding each other?( I'm not stating n
anything, I'm asking cause I don't know.)

 

[Isaios]

And if, with the quirky mechanics in-game, England assimilates after some time and is Norwegian?
The Saxons were already quite adept at assimilating other cultures into their own, such as what they did with the Normans. If the Norwegians invade, shouldn't their cultures mix and become dominant, such as with what happens with the Normans? And it would probably happen even quicker, considering both cultures/languages are Germanic. It would at least make a decent mod.

Sure! A melting pot event would (probably) be the best resolution. I was just commenting on putting Saxons as North Germanic. The gameplay impact is non-negligible. Besides, they already have the same cultural Building and Retinue

 

[Therion]

My understanding is that Old English was closest primarily to Old Frisian and secondly to Old Saxon. Together they comprised a dialect continuum spoken from Frisia to Jutland which is nowadays called North Sea Germanic or Ingvaeonic. Dutch belongs to another branch (Istvaeonic) and derives from Old Frankish. So West Germanic is correct but technically-speaking, Dutch should not be included. Old Norse and its derivatives belong to yet another more distant branch within Germanic. However, Late Old English/Early Middle English was greatly influenced by Norse so grouping them up could be plausible. In any case, culture should not necessarily relate to language exclusively.

 

[Ithvan]

Would you then say Dutch as a language was in this great mix of people understanding each other?( I'm not stating n
anything, I'm asking cause I don't know.)

I'm not sure what you mean, but Dutch is sort of the go-between language between English and German.

Also, bear in mind that every Germanic language was fairly mutually intellegible until 1200 or so. The clear, distinct languages that we know nowadays were only starting to form back then.

 

[Thure]

I'm not sure what you mean, but Dutch is sort of the go-between language between English and German.

Not really. How say... Dutch is a Francian Language. English came from the Old Frisian and Old Saxon... That where the two main Languages of Germany. Old Saxon and Old Francian. Low German or Frisian would be the go-between languages between English and German. Look at the North Sea Germanic.