"Savoyard" What is that? Savoyen !

[Zandraak]

Hello,
I am very upset that Paradox has chosen "Savoyard" to define people living in Savoy.
Wikipedia says?

"Residents of Savoie are known as Savoyards though aussi They can be called Expired Savoyards (the historical name) or Savoyens." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoie)

Why Historical?
The French called the Savoyens "Savoyards" because if french "ard" is often pejorative ("Connard" mean bastard ect)
This is how to define emerged after the war of the Spanish Succession, Savoy or changed Alliance.

Want an example of the dictionary definitions of the time? ( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoyard_(habitant) )

Examples of French definitions highlight the pejorative connotation of "Savoy"
"Savoyard dirty man, rude and brutal, the word is used by Savoy contempt" (Universal Dictionary, Paris 1834)
"Savoyard in a very colloquial language, this word is used to denote a rude man, boor" (Dictionary of Dictionaries, Paris 1837)
"Savoyard peasant,, chimney sweep, used as an insult in the nineteenth century" (Dictionary of French language Paul Robert, Paris 1989)

In the final proof:
When the French colonized Savoie (Direct trade with the King against an Army) "The Times" still qualified people of Savoy as "Savoyens"
(For England denounced the colonization and rigging since admitted, the vote share of France and has demanded the annexation of Switzerland Italy or independence of Savoy, this event, the largest of the 1860 failed drive Europe in a disaster of war ...)

We can deduce that the real term is "Savoyens" and that using the term Savoyard, especially for a historical game is both rude, derogatory and hurtful.

I hope Paradox will hear me, I'm sorry to be picky, but I'm a fan of paradox precisely thanks to its historical accuracy!

Thanks a lot for Reading !

 

[Lord Canterbury]

PDS base all of their naming on (modern) English and the correct English term is Savoyard. I agree the term was originally an insult, but you debate is with the entire English speaking world, not just Paradox!

 

[Dafool]

Interesting. I've only heard Savoyard used in English though. One of the my Italian professors in college was from Savoy and I do not recall her being offended by the term (and she spoke fluent French as well), so I'm not sure if the derogatory sense still carries over.

 

[nicholas2000]

I have only ever heard it as Savoyard, and the wikipedia article you linked outright said that "Residents of Savoie are known as Savoyards". At this point in time, it seems like a fairly accepted term all over the world to use describing people from Savoy, and I think Paradox is totally justified in using the term.

If everyone got upset at Paradox for not meeting each and every one of the nitpicks, Paradox would no longer be a company. I don't see why you're so upset over this.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Um... We still use Spaniard, if -ard is so negative I can't imagine the word is still used in the ever-so-politically-correct US. Besides, what's up with your quote? The current version, date back to May, read "Residents of Savoie are known as Savoyards though they can also be called Savoisiens (the historical name) or Savoyens." And it's also Savoyard in E:TW and iOS spellchecker.

 

[Edeor]

In Italy we use two terms: "Savoiardi" (which are also a type of biscuits: D) or "Sabaudi", and, as far as I know, the translation of Savoyens in italian is "Savoiardi". So i think Savoyard is a good choice.

 

[Lord Finnish]

Did you know there used to be a thread exactly like this in EU3 forum a coupla years ago?

 

[riknap]

Did you know there used to be a thread exactly like this in EU3 forum a coupla years ago?

and there will be one for EU5 as well

and that's a positive sign, as it shows a new generation of players are making their thoughts known :laugh:
(if there weren't, then it could either indicate lack of interest, or the same players - a new generation of players will always have one or two people interested enough in pointing out specifics )

 

[Richard Hakluyt]

Perhaps we should compromise on Saveloys ?

 

[Theddude]

Perhaps we should compromise on Saveloys ?

Or Savoyers. :rofl: Savoyishmen, forward!

 

[Lord Canterbury]

Also, this is certain not the worst case of English bastardising words... and way various peoples get named in English is quite beyond me.

The Savoyens may be surprised that the English call them "Savoyards", but the Zhōngguóren are probably more curious as to why the English call them "Chinese"

 

[Sun_Wu]

Also, this is certain not the worst case of English bastardising words... and way various peoples get named in English is quite beyond me.

The Savoyens may be surprised that the English call them "Savoyards", but the Zhōngguóren are probably more curious as to why the English call them "Chinese"

Englishman, Frenchman, German, Chinaman

Why is Chinaman racist?

 

[Belegurt]

well, in italian u usually say savoiardo as an adjectif (no, not only for the biscuit) to refer to the royal family of savoy or anything that relates to the state of savoy... wich actually resemble a lot the english word.

ok, it may not be the name of a culture (if ill mod italy as i project to do in the future months) i will have to remember this dispute to check it better... but as of now, it looks wrong but still good enough for me

 

[Elfryc]

Second zandraakard thread about Savoy. Always an attempt for a very strange political correctness based on misunderstanding of both language (here) and history (there).

+ Savoyard isn't isolated as such: what about the demonym Briard in French, meaning "from the Brie region"?

+ Savoyard is understood in French -- and I suspect in English -- as "dirty" because of an old tradition in 19th century for Savoyard people to go to Paris in winter time to sweep chimneys, when their farm in the mountains couldn't allow them to live correctly, waiting for the spring to return to their families and beloved mountains.
In French this is paralleled in the expression "maçon creusois" ("builder from the Creuse department"), same story about town work during winter and farm work from spring to autumun, as was common in all Europe for peasant in these time of industrial revolution.

+ How may somebody think French people would eat a "dirty cake"? This gâteau de Savoie or (gâteau) savoyard ("savoyard cake") is not an injury: it's well known by every French people who cooked some in their childhood, either at school or with their nannies, because it's both delicious and easy to cook.
If this Savoyard name was understood as an injury, the cake would have been called something like "Parisian cake" since a very, very long time...

Well, obviously Zandraak tries to speak for Savoy autonomists. That would have be funny with one post. This second one shows all of this is both biased and ridiculous. A third one would be just weird.
I don't have any opinion about Savoy autonomy or independance, but I'm definitively not sure people really working for Savoy autonomy would approve all of these zandraakard ideas and suggestion.

 

[unmerged(344099)]

I live close to a region formerly part of Savoie (until 1476 around), where people are called "Broyard", and there is no pejorative sense in it nor other way to call them. I dont see that as an issue.

What I would like to see in the game is the Arpitan culture in some way shown in a game beside the burgundy one. In such a game, the flavour is to change history and it could have been that the arpitan group could have resisted to the french acculturation :
as you can see here, arpitan (or francoprovençal) lived as a separate language. This could give a nice challenge game-wise : create / keep a country based on this culture.
http://www.francoprovencal.com/public/romance_languages_arpitan_francoprovencal_en.png

 

[Lord Canterbury]

+ Savoyard is understood in French -- and I suspect in English -- as "dirty" because of an old tradition...

In common English use there is no hint of negativity. It is simply 'a person from Savoy'. It carries the same neutral connotations as "English", "Italian", "French", "Swiss" and most other modern Demonyms.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Savoyard can be correct, also becouse is a term also referred to the dinasty and all the land under their control.

 

[unmerged(584823)]

Second zandraakard thread about Savoy. Always an attempt for a very strange political correctness based on misunderstanding of both language (here) and history (there).

+ Savoyard isn't isolated as such: what about the demonym Briard in French, meaning "from the Brie region"?

+ Savoyard is understood in French -- and I suspect in English -- as "dirty" because of an old tradition in 19th century for Savoyard people to go to Paris in winter time to sweep chimneys, when their farm in the mountains couldn't allow them to live correctly, waiting for the spring to return to their families and beloved mountains.
In French this is paralleled in the expression "maçon creusois" ("builder from the Creuse department"), same story about town work during winter and farm work from spring to autumun, as was common in all Europe for peasant in these time of industrial revolution.

+ How may somebody think French people would eat a "dirty cake"? This gâteau de Savoie or (gâteau) savoyard ("savoyard cake") is not an injury: it's well known by every French people who cooked some in their childhood, either at school or with their nannies, because it's both delicious and easy to cook.
If this Savoyard name was understood as an injury, the cake would have been called something like "Parisian cake" since a very, very long time...

Well, obviously Zandraak tries to speak for Savoy autonomists. That would have be funny with one post. This second one shows all of this is both biased and ridiculous. A third one would be just weird.

I don't have any opinion about Savoy autonomy or independance, but I'm definitively not sure people really working for Savoy autonomy would approve all of these zandraakard ideas and suggestion.

Yeah, it's very funny, the only Savoyards "nationalist" I've ever met just wanted to be able to pass a test of Arpitan at their exams, that's all. People tend to forget Savoia (not the country, the region) was culturally very close to french though they were part of a country with a majority of italians.

 

[Slargos]

Concur.

The term "Swede" is also offensive.

Swede may refer to:
A resident or citizen of Sweden
A member of the Swedish people
Swedes (Germanic tribe), an ancient North Germanic tribe inhabiting parts of modern day Sweden
A rutabaga in England, Ireland, Wales, New Zealand and Australia

I am offended. :glare:

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Why is Chinaman racist?

What the fuck are you talking about? The Chinaman is not the issue here, dude. Also, dude, Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.