This is interesting. Why?
Those languages sound nothing alike.
Friulan should stick with venetian, it's his closest kin.
Savoy culture|Ethnic
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This is interesting. Why?
Those languages sound nothing alike.
Friulan should stick with venetian, it's his closest kin.
Yes, we do. There is no way around it due to how prickly most people are about things that are important to them, regardless of whether they are important to the game or not.Don't be so dense man.
Also do we always have to go through threads like these? Like seriously every paradox game that has ever came out has had threads such as this one complaining about borders, provinces, cultures and religion. They almost never change it so stop whining and just mod it when the game comes out. Or wait for a mod such as Death & Taxes to be released.
I am just happy that the Balkans cultural wars on the forum burned out some years ago and we no longer need to hear about Skanderbeg's grandmother makes him an X rather than a Y and how the Balkans' cultures are all extremely distinct, exist since time out of mind, and all cover vastly more territory than they are unfairly limited to in the game. Or was it mother? Grandfather? Uncle? I forget. Happily.
Just live with it and accept that thousands of people care enough about what to you probably seems silly details to go make mods that allow them to play the game in a way they consider faithful to history. And that, surely, is a positive rather than a negative. They have fun debating the merits of their positions, fun modding, and fun playing the game. What is not to like?
The only problem is when they start evangelizing claiming that their mods are more realistic and everybody should play them, but that really is a minor problem and we have tranquilizer darts for that.
In EU3 MEIOU, Savoy was one of the best nations to start as if your goal was to form Occitania.
Absolutly not. Occitan and Francoprovencal (Arpitan) are as the same as Russian and Polish (probably). It is a group of languages in itself, and should be treated as such in the game. Its extension was from Aoste to Vaud and Lyon. This can be seen as cultural because it corresponds to the Western Alps and Prealps, inheriting it from Celtic, Roman and Burgundian roots. Btw my grand-mother was first educated in this language that no Italian or French could understand at all, being too different for that. One challenge in the game could be even to keep this culture alive as a complete country (Savoie is the best candidate) despite France willing to kill it.
Dalmatia and Ragusa should be Croatian. 'nuff said.
But no... Really... They were parts of Croatia since time immemorial!
But no... Really... They were parts of Croatia since time immemorial!
The historic extension of the language areal must even have gone a bit further to the East including places with endings on -a (e.g. Berna) and it was in use as offical language in Fribourg during the 14th Century. Historic language areals are often determined by political factors. It would not be unplausible to see these in the kingdoms Upper Burgundy and Arelat. Assuming ethinc factors would not bring much in that case obviously.
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I am from Fribourg, so I can only approve ;-)
This culture/language was severely injured only 50-100 years ago, even though some few places in Valais/Aoste use it commonly. Regarding full extension during middle-age, let PI find it out.
This culture/language was severely injured only 50-100 years ago, even though some few places in Valais/Aoste use it commonly. Regarding full extension during middle-age, let PI find it out.
Well, Arpitan is a very interesting language, it managed to survive beetween France and Italy as an other latin language, and not a simple dialect. The problem is that, contrary to corsican who explode hotel, Savoyards are too civilized and polite to show any kind of unnecessary violence, and, as you might have observe it, a lot of people are interested only in what hurts. I don't even think France today policy is to attend to local particularities, I'd even say it's the other way around, but the problem is that, while everyone now there is a corsican or britton identity, a lot of people don't even know what Arpitan is.
But, I have to say, as a french man, even if I hardly understand Arpitan when it's spoken, it is possible to understand it (by this, I mean the concept, not all the ideas which emerged from a text) when written. I do thnik Arpitan is one of the latin language which is one of the closest (if not the closest) to French.
Why ? I never heard of this, would be interesting in finding out what you mean.
I have to say I still find it hard to understand all the consequences culture can have on gameplay, so, please, could you explain me how an independant Maltese culture could be harming to the game ?
Well, it doesn't really make sense, Savoy AFAIK never spoke Occitan, and there culture is very different to the rest of the south.
I can tell you by experience that I cannot understand full sentences of arpitan when spoken. When written of course it is more likely, like I could catch some italian or spanish. The fact is that arpitan took some words from the closest areas (italian or french) when an arpitan word was missing, or over time for different reasons (as english today, french in english in the past). But that does not mean that arpitan comes from french but from mainly from latin with influences of celt and burgundian :
" (wiki) Comme toutes les langues romanes, le francoprovençal dérive majoritairement du latin. Des recherches récentes démontrent que le francoprovençal n’est pas une branche archaïque de la langue d'oïl, mais une langue romane indépendante, aussi ancienne que les autres langues gallo-romanes"
This to agree fully with you Hargrave, the arpitan area people were (are) too "polite and civilized (or shy)" to act as many autonomists fighting for the recognition of their culture, but this does not mean they did (do) not have their own one. In my opinion, a historical game should reflect this by removing this region out of "Occitanie" and add a new one callee "Arpitanie". This would allow an interesting challenge, as I said in a previous post : keeping this culture alive with a dedicated state. I am not an autonomist, I simply live in this region and know a bit of it.
Map :
View attachment 87626
Guys, keep in mind that language group =/= culture group. Otherwise we'd have to group Piedmont with French instead of Italian, which obviously wouldn't be right.
There's also no need for 1-2 province cultures that are similar to their neighbors/never produced a ruler of their own. As far as I know, no ruling family of Savoy ever used Arpitan in their court. It simply wasn't a prestigious language, while Occitan, French, and Italian had strong presences right next door. It's doubtful that without a revolutionary peasant revolt, you'd ever see Arpitan used as a state language. As such, what is gained by adding the culture? What's wrong with abstractions? Why can't we just accept that "French" or the various Italian cultures are meant to cover a multitude of dialects, or even languages?
Also, that guy who said Catalan should be grouped with Venetian is off his rocker or trolling. Catalan is linguistically essentially a southern offshoot of Occitan.
There's also no need for 1-2 province cultures that are similar to their neighbors/never produced a ruler of their own. As far as I know, no ruling family of Savoy ever used Arpitan in their court. It simply wasn't a prestigious language, while Occitan, French, and Italian had strong presences right next door. It's doubtful that without a revolutionary peasant revolt, you'd ever see Arpitan used as a state language. As such, what is gained by adding the culture? What's wrong with abstractions? Why can't we just accept that "French" or the various Italian cultures are meant to cover a multitude of dialects, or even languages?
Also, that guy who said Catalan should be grouped with Venetian is off his rocker or trolling. Catalan is linguistically essentially a southern offshoot of Occitan.
Not sure, a big part of Piedmont should be Arpitan indeed.
Here we are speaking about 6-8 provinces.
Does it make english and russian countries "French" because their court used to speak french?
I would enjoy the game of course even without these changes. Better the game is, more picky we might be
Nevertheless, I still think that adding the challenge of grouping this culture's provinces under one state would be a nice challenge (each of us having different ones when playing this kind of games, I presume).It is after all not written in stone that the current French (an old dialect from Paris) should have been the only authorized language all over the today's France.
I don't know what your sources are, but you should re-consider your knowledge of history of the Adriatic.
The Avars settled there in century VII, whereas croats only got there a century after.
That being said, coastal dalmatia has always been a mixture of morlaks and latinized illyrians, and neither of them are croats.
Morlaks are tied to the latin world due to their language, which is what got them to be "friends" with the venetians, that bought the whole coast in the year 1437.
As a matter of fact the dalmatians and romance speaking cities of the coast considered the croatians to be their "enemies" up until a very late date. Even under Hungarian and croat occupation, the dalmatians (which served as the famous venetian "oltremarini" and "schiavoni" in the republican army) were left indipendent, up to the point where they could have their own alliances.
They were, on top of that, of great importance in most of the venetian battles against the turks, serving both as ports and as manpower to fend off the turk, as the hellenic did in the Aegean.
The dalmatian communities of the Adriatic looked at Venice as queen of the Adriatic, most of the time also paying Venice with gold and silk to get their benevolence. Famous is the example of Arbe, which used to pay 2 kg of gold and 5 kg of silk to Venice, each year. Most of them just supplied Venice with manpower.
Even before renaissance, due to their ties with the latin world and Venice, the dalmatian language in places such as Zara had already been replaced by veneto.
To this day morlaks are almost extinct and so are most of the latin populations of the eastern side of the Adriatic, due to Tito's ethnic cleansing in the 1900s.
Most of them moved to either Romania or Veneto, meddling in with the population.
Ragusa was NEVER Dubrovnik.