Save Scumming and CK2

[Morwys]

I've been playing CK2 for a while and reading the forums for even longer, and if there's something that seems to be one constant topic of PI's grand strategy forums is either if save scumming is something to loathe or something necessary for a good game. I don't like to do it, but I must admit, the randomness of it all gets to me. A genius ruler, married to an attractive queen, has five kids, one imbecile, one hunchback, one ugly and one normal. Or, you've got only one good heir and a bunch of horrible ones, until that the good one becomes incapable after a battle. You all know how it feels.

But you all know as well how it feels to have the perfect king, the perfect heir, the perfect wife... and yet it all fews wrong because you save scummed to oblivion, to try and get the best possible scenario. It feels like cheating, even though it isn't.

Some will say 'let them play the way they want' and I say 'but what way is that?'. So, I'd like to know: what is your take on the subject? Is save scumming something to avoid at all costs, or a valid gameplay tactic?

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

I bite the bullet and play on. I have had imbecile Kings, while not fun at all, it was what the game gave me. I have been knocked out of the game within 40 years a few times, you learn from it!! I always handicap myself in addition to what the game tosses at me, ie only one change of inhertiance laws per game, some games can only get land via marriage. I consider it cheating myself, and if people want to it is their time. I did learn to not want to have demense over 7 becasue of the toss of the dice!! 7 is number even most weak kings can deal with, well not imbeciles, gahhh they really suck. I am going to start killing them off!!

 

[Cymsdale]

Save scumming is cheating, but it's only cheating yourself, so there is nothing ethically wrong with it.

I'd be bored out of my mind if I played only accepting perfect results. Having a period of "perfect" rulers is wonderful as a golden age of expansion for your realm, but it would be boring if the entire time frame of the game was spent like that to me, and doesn't create a very interesting narrative.

 

[Lord Finnish]

I have to say that only times when I save-scum is when I have a large empire and my ruler dies with a child younger than 10 to inherit it.

 

[A_Dane]

I save-scum every once in a while, but only when I feel something completely implausible happens. (Death of a ruler of "natural" causes, in his early 20's without any negative health attributes is starting to truly infuriate me. Sure if he's ill, stressed or the like I'll accept that. And yes, I'm completely aware that people do happen to die in their early 20's for no apparant reason, but it happens too frequently in my games).

Currently I got a game going, started with a custom made ruler, had 4 legit sons from a marriage and 2 legitimized bastards. My ruler dies in his early 50's, and 5 years later his legitimate sons have all followed him, leaving only daughters. The eldest bastard proceeds to the throne, but manages to only father a single son who got the "weak trait". That trait has haunted me for 3 generations now...

Worst part of it was, that his eldest son was a Genius.. he took a blow to the head fighting for the danish throne sadly

 

[MrDisaster]

This really depends on the type of game i am playing. If i want a relaxed weekend game then theres usually no reloading. Sometimes i play it diffrently, i once set the goal to breed as much members of my family as i possibly could (trying to keep perfect stats/traits in the core dynasty, quick, genius, attractive), giving out baronies-counties-duchies to all landless males. By the end of 1300 i had over 5000 living family members spread accross europe at pretty much every court there is, sure was an entertaining game

 

[delling]

Only time I go back to a previous save is when I make a mistake, like clicking the wrong button. I rather start over then go back to a previous save just because a die roll. The only save-scumming I've done was when I clicked 'Guards, oil up the rack' (as I always do) and the idiot duke had to die during my little fun-time. It messed up what I was planning so I loaded up my DeLorean and bounced back to January 1 that year.

That said, I think everyone should have as much fun as possible with the game - if people have more fun using cheats or saves, by all means do it!!! It's a game, it's entertainment. I'll probably try playing with some cheats and reloads just for giggles sometime (hmmm... maybe next round..)

 

[BurningEGO]

Sometimes you are really forced to reload your autosave or something.

I remember reloading when my Emperor that had just come of age received the "incapable trait" via some random battle vs some terrible small rebel army (he died shortly afterwards). His heir, his uncle, was a slothful arbitrary imbecile with 0 stats except for intrigue. And when you rule an empire from Britannia to Egypt, this is not an option.

Generally i despise reloading but sometimes i feel like i got no alternative. When you got over 50% chances of assassinating someone, with less than 20% of being discovered, and you fail like 10 attempts and get discovered twice, and murdered in the process, you know the game is just being evil to you.

 

[Typee]

It's cheating of course.
I only reload in two situations:
1- A glitch screwed me over (like the glitch where you plot to take a land from your vassal, wage war against him, take the land, immediately give it to someone else... and fail the plot because when the game checks for plot success conditions, it's not in your direct control anymore).
2- I was completely obliterated and obviously lost, and still want to continue playing. Example: playing a muslim ruler in Spain, doing good. Suddenly Mauritania sultan declares war on me for all my lands. No money in bank to hire mercenaries, and my allies prefer him to me. I got dunked and reloaded 5 years before to prepare for the war (couldn't prevent it).

 

[Gunnarr]

I do it quite often when I am losing or when I make stupid mistakes.

Mistakes include:

having so many units moving through a land half of them dies from attrition

accidently winning jihads/crusades which i do not want to win

bad placement of units for battle against blobbing HRE

Instances of losing:

Any time I lose against factions trying to place pretender on the throne.

Any time I lose against blobbing HRE (NO HRE, I WILL NOT LET YOU HAVE MORE THAN 30% OF HISPANIA!!!!)


===

there are probably many more which I do not remember off the top of my head.

I must always be weary of reload though, because after doing it about 5 times in one sitting the game takes about 3 minutes to load a save so i must crash it and start it up again

 

[Hootieleece]

I used to save-scum all the time......especially with EU3.I've pretty much broken myself of the habit.Since coming to CK2.Since I realized that I was CHEATING myself by playing that way.(and not becoming a more skilled player)

Yes,I use Autosave feature, but only go back to them if game crashes or freezes.Otherwise I only play from end of session saves.

 

[Veetor]

I want to not save scum, but sadly I always end up doing it

 

[_krampe_]

I only savescum when something really really bad happens like my superbred genius king with 30 diplo dies in the first battle he has because i forgot to put him back home after raising personal levies.
Well i ragequit and continue an autosave next day

I don't mind having "save scummed cheated" perfect games in single player. If you really want a challenge play multiplayer without pause. Isn't pausing "cheating" aswell?

 

[Typee]

Isn't pausing "cheating" aswell?

How so?
"Ok, King, we conquered Isreal. You have to reassign each holding in the Holy Land to nobles of your court, BUT QUICK YOU ONLY HAVE 50 SECONDS!"

 

[FastLoris]

Yahtzee wrote a great article on Save Scumming: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/10029-Save-Scummer.2

 

[tapewormlondon]

Funilly enough I am playing my first ever game without save reloading. I have lost my first ever war and had my first ever WTF moment when an assassination attempt meant I got caught on a 2% chance.

I'm really enjoying myself but from a guy like me who would literally reload to ensure perfect results all the time, its a hard habit to kick! Learning shed loads too.

 

[Morwys]

I save-scum every once in a while, but only when I feel something completely implausible happens. (Death of a ruler of "natural" causes, in his early 20's without any negative health attributes is starting to truly infuriate me. Sure if he's ill, stressed or the like I'll accept that. And yes, I'm completely aware that people do happen to die in their early 20's for no apparant reason, but it happens too frequently in my games).

I understand that feeling. Every know disease could be seen from a gameplay perspective: the "ill" trait covers every possible scenario outside those already covered by the game (pneumonia, tuberculosis, etc). A 'natural death' is ridiculous because there's no such thing. An elderly person dies because he gets sick; the chance to get the 'ill' trait should increase immensely after a certain age.

I want to not save scum, but sadly I always end up doing it

E aí, Veetor! It's always nice to see a compatriot around here.

About what you said, I also understand it. I don't like it, but more often than not I end up doing it, because the game infuriates me sometimes.

 

[Hackworthy]

The broken genetic system is annoying as shit but rolling with the punches is part of the game.

 

[nyah]

The only time it's not cheating is when you've been playing drunk and really regret your decisions in the morning.

 

[Baron Jukaga]

When starting out, it was tough not to save/reload but since I've started to look at CK2 as less of a game to win and more of a story engine I've had much more fun dealing with the bad cards you are sometimes dealt. You never know too, that big disaster just might set up a new opportunity down the road. I may do a little save loading when trying out a feature that I'm unsure of the effects for the first time, but that is just to understand the mechanics.