Sardinia

[Semi-Lobster]

I don't think Sardinia should be part of the Kingdom of Italy because that just leads to them pledging alliegence to the HRE after a few years which is ridiculous. This is especially silly for Sardinia which hadn't been united with Italy since the days of the Western Roman Empire at the time.

 

[Lurken]

So what kingdom would Sardinia be a part of? none? As Brittany?

 

[Semi-Lobster]

So what kingdom would Sardinia be a part of? none? As Brittany?

Ideally it would be none, the only kingdom that held sway over Sardinia during the CK time period was Aragon who took it by force in hopes of fullfilling a deal they had with the Papacy and create the title of the Kingdom of Sardinia and Corsica. This was very late in the game (laet 1300's) and the Aragonese where very brutal to the Sardinians

 

[Third Angel]

Ideally it would be none, the only kingdom that held sway over Sardinia during the CK time period was Aragon who took it by force in hopes of fullfilling a deal they had with the Papacy and create the title of the Kingdom of Sardinia and Corsica. This was very late in the game (laet 1300's) and the Aragonese where very brutal to the Sardinians

I support this but I'm not sure this proposition has any chance of being accepted here:

The default creatable kingdoms in the province.csv will not be changed.

Does this also cover changing provinces from one to another, or putting them none?

Did you btw see this thread?
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205197

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Well, I support it to.

As long as nobody demands a kingdom of Sardinia . They might change the setup of Sardinia, since it would be historically correct.

 

[Justinian_A]

I would heartily support making Sardinia part of no kingdom in order to make it more accurate. We have other areas that aren't part of a kingdom, I don't see why this would be a problem.

 

[Enravota]

i'd rather have them none rather than part of italian kingdom (and HRE)

 

[Lurken]

It seems that all that has spoken supports the change to "none" kingdom. Now we'll just wait and see for Mr.T and/or Byak.

Then we need to back this up with some claims and sources.

 

[Yakman]

Sounds good.

Accuracy is good.

 

[Calgacus]

You may add my support to that. I'd rather it be in Aragon than Italy, but NONE is by far the most appropriate.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Maybe 1.06?

It doesn't feel like a gamebreaker thing to me and it's easy to do yourself. Link given by Third Angel is a good place to suggest it too.

 

[Lurken]

Maybe 1.06?

It doesn't feel like a gamebreaker thing to me and it's easy to do yourself. Link given by Third Angel is a good place to suggest it too.

But why no now? It helps to recreate history, somewhat. It isn't a huge change. Something a beta could easily contain, with almost minimal work.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

But why no now? It helps to recreate history, somewhat. It isn't a huge change. Something a beta could easily contain, with almost minimal work.

Indeed, but any changes in setups could potentially change the powerbalance, so it will need testing afterwards.

 

[Lurken]

Indeed, but any changes in setups could potentially change the powerbalance, so it will need testing afterwards.

Aah...you speak with great wisdom. I have failed to see the potential powershift. Although in my eyes I deem that Sardinia is a rather smalltime player in the Mare Nostrum. But...you undoubtedly have more wisdom and experiance then me. Thus, I will abide your ruling.

 

[Damocles]

I removed the Kingdom of Italy title from the HRE.

Just as Catalonia starts independent from Aragon to best represent RL despite being a technical vassal, the HRE being King of Italy gives with it an authority and loyalty from those provinces that he never had. Though, they still start as pledged to him. They just tend to go their own way over time.

 

[Lurken]

Ooh...removing the Crown of Italy form HRE is a major change in balance. Probably more realistic, but it is a major change. Were the italians disloyal to HRE even in 1066? If not, then we cannot remove the Italy title form HRE.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Ooh...removing the Crown of Italy form HRE is a major change in balance. Probably more realistic, but it is a major change. Were the italians disloyal to HRE even in 1066? If not, then we cannot remove the Italy title form HRE.

Well, we have to ask ourselves, was Heinrich von Franken crowned king of Italy ? And when ?

Heinrich became King of the Germans (Deutscher König/King of Germany in CK) in 1056 but only became emperor of the HRE in 1083.

So historical it might be even correct to not give him the title King of Italy in 1066.

 

[Enravota]

leave Italians as vassals but do not give him the title. this is a bit ot to Sardinia as part of the kingdom of Italy btw.

 

[jordarkelf]

Louis II created the title King of Italy in 844, and the title was given to various members of the Frankish royal house until 950, when one Berengar of Ivrea claimed the title (and was excommunicated for this). At his capture by Otto I of the Holy Roman Empire in 962 the title King of Italy became a title which was automatically given to the Emperor, until 1806.

Therefore most Kings of the Germans were also Kings of Italy, as the Holy Roman Emperor was usually the same person as the King of the Germans.

The only other claimant to the title was Arduin, Margrave of Ivrea, who claimed the title in 1002, but he never gained any support. The Margravate was later dissolved, leaving no more claimants.


Since in CK there is no way to correctly model the confusing history of the HRE (if done right, it should be an elective title which would *usually* go to the King of the Germans, but the Emperor was not always the ruling King of the Germans), it is best to equate King of the Germans and Holy Roman Emperor.

So the title and setup are certainly historical.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

But not all the German kings became emperor. And they didn't automatically become king of Italy either, they had to travel to Italy to receive the crown form the Archbishop of Milano.

So if Heinrich hasn't travelled to Italy to be crowned King of Italy, it is not historical to have him as King of Germany, Italy and Burgundy.

So in my opinion it is the best to equote the 3 kingtitles as the HRE and not just the title King of Germany, when they haven't been crowned emperor yet (as was the case with Heinrich) it could be considered historically correct to have him just as King of Germany.