Sandbox vs Determinism
- Thread starter Oddb@ll
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So, considering pretty much the only deterministic thing is HOI3 is that there would be German-(British+French) and (America+China) vs Japan wars, what kind of more sandbox can we expect? We already can get US to become fascist dictatorship through spies and join axis, Germany is free to pursue almost any imaginable strategy and still win, and ITaly and Japan can easily kick ass in hands of the player, and I`ve even saw player Canada winning a war against US, what kind of more sandbox should we expect? Will it be more or less in line with plausible historical alternative plans that were actually developed, or will it be like Victoria 2 and EU4?
To be honest, if the game starts in 1936 then WWII is already incoming - it could change dramatically, yes, but the pieces have been positioned from at least 1930 (and some sort of European conflict was almost unavoidable since Versailles). If the game was detailed enough, it could go sandbox all the way and still end up with a world war 95% of the cases.
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Germany beat them to invading by hours. British troops were loaded on transports waiting for the completion of the mining operation when the Germans invaded. British ships returning from mining passed within miles of German troop ships.
Some sandbox is necessary, otherwise, why play as Germany when you will lose in May 45'.
"We don't do marxistic historical games, where its mandatory that some countries will always fail." - Johan
Too many events would depend on player and AI imitating history on where to send armies and when.
There is a large difference between Plausibility and Determinism.
Yeah, I remember HoI3's sandbox, Finland invading Albania and such, I love sandbox. SO plausible.
Yeah, they where ready to go, but the germans acted fast and made it before the english and the french.
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Can't stand to see my Japan game being ruined by USA going fascist and becoming an Axis member or some other sandbox bullshitness.
I don't know how you could possibly make it sandbox without having weird occurrences in the game. I always thought that with the Political Ideology or Political Party thing the it should have certain demands on the player and the ai. Like if it is a nfascist party it would have living space as a demand and be more likely to attack countries next to it, or if an absolute monarchy it might want to stop dissent or any type of democratic reform. Could be historically accurate or randomized. Once it is fulfilled the demand changes. Kinda like the mission system for EU4 but more long term.
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Vanilla HoI always used to be great fun, but utterly unrealistic. 90% of the mods did the opposite, forcing the player down a pre-determined road.
The only right way to do it is "historical plausibility". Just like Darkest Hour and the HPP mod did.
HoI3's "sandbox" was the reason I no longer preorder Paradox games.
Exactly. Germany are ruled by NSDAP, Roosevelt is in power in the US, Benito in Italy and so on. The japanese have been acting aggressively, scrapping treaties etc. The German rulers are bent on expansion, this was the core of nazi ideology. So yes, the pieces were in place. Some actors were more inclined to ally than others. A democratic GB could not cooperate with the Führer, it would be unthinkable! But if the nazis were couped? Sure. But who would act as an aggressor then? What is a war game without a powerful belligerent? It's not like Vicky where you can play through 100 years of peace and really enjoy the game.
There is no need for "railroading" or forcing war with an event at a certain date. But I hope there are some boundaries that give us a somewhat historical context in the game.
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exactly. In HPP, if things go off the rails, there is almost Always a perfectly reasonable explanation. As Germany, you can avoid the war entirely, if you want to. As the Soviets, you could end up getting DoWed by the Allies if you gobble up too many of your small, weak neighbours pre-war. And so on and so forth.
What I don't want to see is a return to vanilla HOI 3. I think we can all agree that those things were just crazy.
A game that is 100% sandbox or 100% determenist will probably not be fun. It is always something in between. Earlier Paradox games seemed to be more on the determenist side, but every new game has become a bit more sandbox. Personally, I'd say it is becoming a bit too sandbox for me.
I've been wondering lately, why not please both sides? I doubt it can be that hard to make a tickbox 'AI will always choose historical option in events'. Would go a long way already. Or better, make it a slider affecting the percentages the AI uses when making a decision in events. Just an idea ofcourse, but I really think you could do something for everyone there.
I am sure the dev diarys will shed some more light on how sandbox HOI4 will be, so I await those with great anticipation!
Yup. But, for example, there should be a "capitulation all the way" possibility - GB/France capitulating over Austria, the Sudetenland, Danzig, Poznan, Eupen-Malmedy, and maybe GB calling off altogether when Hitler comes knocking for