Salvaging and "scavenging" sunken ships

[safe-keeper]

When a ship is lost in port (most likely due to air attack), could there be an option to spend resources on salvaging that ship? Or perhaps at least stripping her of valuable equipment and whatnot so that your country gets some resources or something back? There were numerous instances during WWII where ships were lost and then either recovered, stripped of equipment, machinery and weapons, or put to use in other ways. For example, a German warship capsized during the invasion of Bergen, Norway, was reportedly put to use as a kind of makeshift floating pier.

This could also allow players to decomission/scuttle obsolete ships properly, rather than having to hit 'Delete' and simply have them disappear from the game. When scuttling a vessel, you would receive a small amount of resources and perhaps have whatever was recovered from the ship put to use in other vessels, leading to a small and temporary boost in repair or build times.

 

[Axe99]

This is a good idea - Pearl Harbour I think is the best single example of this kind of thing, a number of major warships were re-floated after the attack (it took years, mind, but it happened). I'm not sure how much detail it's worth going into though - the mechanic would need to be fairly straightforward to not start becoming micro-ey.

Maybe keep it to two things:

- After an air attack, the game makes a determination as to whether a ship is salvageable or not. If it is, the option is presented to the player and it can be moved to a 'Naval IC track' to be put back together.

- For old ships, there's an option (if docked in a major port) to recover material and scuttle. I know the scuttling wouldn't actually happen in the major port, but the recovery of resources would. Not sure how these resources would translate into in-game stuff though, maybe a little 'boost' to Naval IC production?

 

[safe-keeper]

Yeah, history articles about Pearl Harbour is where I got the idea from. And yes, I agree the system should be kept very simple.

 

[steindroff]

Maybe keep it to two things:

- After an air attack, the game makes a determination as to whether a ship is salvageable or not. If it is, the option is presented to the player and it can be moved to a 'Naval IC track' to be put back together.

- For old ships, there's an option (if docked in a major port) to recover material and scuttle. I know the scuttling wouldn't actually happen in the major port, but the recovery of resources would. Not sure how these resources would translate into in-game stuff though, maybe a little 'boost' to Naval IC production?

+1 :excl:

 

[Kovax]

I could see the possibility of either putting it back into the production que with partial completion, or for providing a temporary production boost for scrapping it. It's not a game-changer either way, since you'll either get an old ship back or get a newer ship slightly sooner, that's about all.

 

[Bluestreak2k5]

I don't think this is possible, as we don't have a "production queue" anymore.

However, I have suggested for a long time for the inclusion of a "scrap factory" to be included as a consumer good, where the input would be equipment, and output resources. As such you could scrap foreign equipment, or even add in "destroyed equipment" that appears on the battlefield after battles. Destroyed equipment would be sent back to be scrapped, and would provide a large resource that Germany had access to.

 

[Laciboj]

Nice idea.

 

[PEP]

Isn't it already in? Isn't having a ship at 5% strength or less and bringing her back to port for reparations exactly what the OP is asking for? (Well at least for the whole salvaging part, the other part about stripping damaged or old vessels for parts doesn't really seem to fit the scale of the game in my opinion.)

 

[Axe99]

Isn't it already in? Isn't having a ship at 5% strength or less and bringing her back to port for reparations exactly what the OP is asking for? (Well at least for the whole salvaging part, the other part about stripping damaged or old vessels for parts doesn't really seem to fit the scale of the game in my opinion.)

This is more the ships that were actually sunk and then re-floated, rather than very damaged ships that just got back to port, towed or otherwise. As for how they're dealt with in HoI4, though we don't know, but there were definitely mechanics in HoI3 for it .

 

[Wilbry]

If we define the term "salvageable" as applying to ships that can be ready again within several months, otherwise it is not "salavagable within the timeframe of the game".
The combat system could check for final kill and if the port is rated "shallow" the boat is flagged non-prioirty for further attack rounds and put to 1%, with all systems damaged (assuming they have sub-system damage? who knows).

 

[Axe99]

If we define the term "salvageable" as applying to ships that can be ready again within several months, otherwise it is not "salavagable within the timeframe of the game".
The combat system could check for final kill and if the port is rated "shallow" the boat is flagged non-prioirty for further attack rounds and put to 1%, with all systems damaged (assuming they have sub-system damage? who knows).

There were nearly four more years of war to usefully use any salvaged vessels, so even the ships that weren't refloated quickly might be worth including. In the case of Pearl Harbour, it took years for some BBs to come back into service. It would primarily be something for Pearl Harbour if we were replaying WW2 'as it happened', but what if the Luftwaffe had carried out a long-range surprise raid on Scapa Flow, for example? As a mechanic in-game, it's got potential, although it affects few enough ships that it's not the end of the world if it doesn't make it in.

To work on the remaining seven ships, all of them sunk, a salvage organization was formally established a week after the raid to begin what would clearly be a huge job. Commanded from early January 1942 by Captain Homer N. Wallin, previously a member of the Battle Force Staff, this Salvage Division labored hard and productively for over two years to refloat five ships and remove weapons and equipment from the other two. Among its accomplishments were the refloating of the battleships Nevada in February 1942, California in March, and West Virginia in June, plus the minelayer Oglala during April-July 1942. After extensive shipyard repairs, these four ships were placed back in the active fleet in time to help defeat Japan.

(from http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/pearlhbr/ph-salv.htm)

Using Wikipedia (so take with a grain of salt and correct if someone knows better), Nevada came back into service in October 1942, California was 'shaken down' in Jan '44 and took part in the invasion of the Marianas, and thjey didn't even get the West Virginia to leave Pearl Harbour until May 1943, but after refitting work was in time to be involved (and play an important role in) the Battle(s) of Leyte Gulf.

 

[Wilbry]

Yeah Axe, I get that.
The "several months" time thing was just an arbitrary assignment, I dont know how long it will take to restore a ship from 1%.
And also consider that if the ships were healed and then refitted, you add in the refit time, and it would be pretty comparable for game purposes. Especially if you consider the ships, out of action for 4 years, probably were not high priority (battleships, who needs them?) and thus fell off the end of the resource prioirty que every now and then.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Nevada was back in service in 11.5 months. That's easily inside the "within the timeframe of the game".

But I doubt such an option would be added. Based on the existing DevDiaries, Paradox seems to be wary of anything that smells of micromanagement. This definitely smells like micro.

 

[PEP]

What happened to the Nevada happens each time a 1-5% strength ship is repaired in the game... Honestly what do you think a 1-5% strength ship really is if not a barely salvageable wreck?

 

[cacra]

What happened to the Nevada happens each time a 1-5% strength ship is repaired in the game... Honestly what do you think a 1-5% strength ship really is if not a barely salvageable wreck?

This seems the best way to represent it.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

This seems the best way to represent it.

1. They shouldn't be able to move.
2. They should be able to be captured.
3. If in some remote location deep inside enemy territory, you want to destroy your wrecks while your enemies would want to keep them intact for parts, technologies or a half-finished ship.

 

[PEP]

1. They shouldn't be able to move.
2. They should be able to be captured.
3. If in some remote location deep inside enemy territory, you want to destroy your wrecks while your enemies would want to keep them intact for parts, technologies or a half-finished ship.

Maybe but that's really overdoing it IMO. It wouldn't add much to the game and I can easily see this becoming very tiresome for the player.

 

[GarfunkeL]

What happened to the Nevada happens each time a 1-5% strength ship is repaired in the game... Honestly what do you think a 1-5% strength ship really is if not a barely salvageable wreck?

That wreck is able to move under its own power even across oceans. Description that does not fit any of the restored PH ships.

Germans also salvaged the Tirpitz after the British mini-sub attack that partially sank it.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Maybe but that's really overdoing it IMO. It wouldn't add much to the game and I can easily see this becoming very tiresome for the player.

You are assumming that every players should be able to churn out ships like they're free. Japan paid a lot of attention on salvaging wrecks because it cannot produce ships the American way.

 

[Director]

I think a better example would be the 'salvage' of Gneisenau after her aerial bombing damage. A number of her guns wound up in shore batteries as (I think) did some of her armor plate.

The US had more industrial capacity than the rest of the world combined, plus a conservative officer corps devoted to the 'big gun' fleet. Even after Pearl Harbor most of the admirals would have said the fleet had to be built around battleships. A number of old BBs could have been used early on in the Pacific campaigns like Guadalcanal (Mississippi, Idaho and New Mexico for example) but were not. The reason was that there were not enough oilers to supply the Pacific theater (too few in the peacetime Navy plus wartime aircraft and submarine losses). Either the cruisers, destroyers and carriers could have fuel or the old BBs - not all - and so it was prudent to take the old BBs into drydock and upgrade them with improved protection, radar and AA armament for later use. Admiral King repeatedly pushed Admiral Nimitz to make use of the old BBs and Nimitz steadfastly refused - he needed the carriers for air support and the cruisers and destroyers to stop the Tokyo Express. The one time the US fleet could have used a radar-equipped old BB or two would have been First and Second Guadalcanal.

By the time the tanker shortage eased the new carriers were entering the fleet and it was obvious to everyone that carriers were more useful than 21-knot, 30-year-old battleships. The old BBs spent a lot of the war in training, convoy escort or just swinging around their anchors, being brought out only for fire support for the island campaigns. The US could spend the time, money and resources to rebuild outdated ships and so it did - but if the old BBs hadn't been present it seems likely that they would not have been much missed.