Sainthood

[Norgesvenn]

Aye, every kingdom has its saint kings, hasn't it?

I can think of St. Erik of Sweden and St. Olav of Norway. Surely there are several others...
I just thought of it now. Seems very obvious that it should be a feature, doesn't it?

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by Norgesvenn
Aye, every kingdom has its saint kings, hasn't it?

I can think of St. Erik of Sweden and St. Olav of Norway. Surely there are several others...
I just thought of it now. Seems very obvious that it should be a feature, doesn't it?

I'm sure something can be done; shouldn't be too late to implement it...I hope.

As for other saint-kings, St. Stephan of Hungary, St. Louis of France and St. Lazar of Serbia come to mind. Too bad us Turks don't have any, sainthood was a different concept for the Seljuks and Ottomans (save for the odd fascination Ottomans had for Saint George which continued to this day---we have an icon of St. George in my family house despite being Muslim )

 

[Norgesvenn]

Pehaps we should create a separate thread for the sainthood issues?

 

[unmerged(7529)]

St George fascination may have to do with the 'marbled king' legend (Hagia Sophia etc) (at least in cases such as your family's, where crypto-christianism is to be ruled out)

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by Norgesvenn
Pehaps we should create a separate thread for the sainthood issues?

Sounds good, rather than it being drowned here in a sea of ethno-linguistic madness

 

[Norgesvenn]

Okay, I'll bite...

In a game about piety and status - can you get your great-grand father king Fred the Flawed declared a saint by the Pope?

Is sainthood and relics and suchlike included?

 

[Havard]

Originally posted by Norgesvenn
Pehaps we should create a separate thread for the sainthood issues?

I've moved it out and merged it with this thread

 

[Norgesvenn]

Thanks, Havard!

I didn't find anything about this in the FAQ.

 

[Havard]

So far I don't know if we have had any info on this from P/S. It would be interresting to hear though. And a cool feature. It should be possible for persons amassing enormous amounts of piety, and should bring piety bonuses to later generations too ("My father, the Saint").

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by Havard
So far I don't know if we have had any info on this from P/S. It would be interresting to hear though. And a cool feature. It should be possible for persons amassing enormous amounts of piety, and should bring piety bonuses to later generations too ("My father, the Saint").

And would be an extremely appropiate as a feature for Crusader Kings, imho. Consider Saint Louis who was declared a saint in no small part due to his ill-fated crusading efforts in North Africa.

 

[unmerged(8523)]

Originally posted by tuna


I'm sure something can be done; shouldn't be too late to implement it...I hope.

As for other saint-kings, St. Stephan of Hungary, St. Louis of France and St. Lazar of Serbia come to mind. Too bad us Turks don't have any, sainthood was a different concept for the Seljuks and Ottomans (save for the odd fascination Ottomans had for Saint George which continued to this day---we have an icon of St. George in my family house despite being Muslim )

that is interesting... does the dragon have any symbolic importance in islam? would it have to do with saint george in that respect, then?

on a side note, since you mentioned orguz (oguz?), did the turks have a similar "hero-worship" tradition? can one assume since we have an empire named after otto, osmanli devleti, that familial honor was more important than personal and the ottomans had an "ancestor worship" thing similar to the romans'?

steph

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by stephanos


that is interesting... does the dragon have any symbolic importance in islam? would it have to do with saint george in that respect, then?

on a side note, since you mentioned orguz (oguz?), did the turks have a similar "hero-worship" tradition? can one assume since we have an empire named after otto, osmanli devleti, that familial honor was more important than personal and the ottomans had an "ancestor worship" thing similar to the romans'?

A seperate thread in History forums might be necessary here as we're getting OT---but I'll answer nonetheless hoping that mods will move these last few posts as well

The dragon doesn't have an importance in Islam---actually, I'm not aware of St. George being an important figure outside of Turkey (save for the Balkans where greater examples of religious snycretism exist) The veneration of St. George is completely un-Islamic in any case, as Sunni Islam at its core reserves such praises only to God, and no other.

The Church of Aya Yorgi (St. George) on Buyuk Ada, off the coast of Istanbul, attracts pilgrims all year round. Especially during the last two weeks of April culminating on the 23rd, feast day of St. George, it's packed with visitors lighting candles and praying---almost all of them are Muslim. My relatives, including my mom, go there every April 23rd, though until I told them that it was St. George's feast, they had no idea why that day in particular was so important.

Turks did have a pre-Islamic, hero-worshipping tradition. Oguz Han (Kagan, Mete Han---all of them the same mythical personality) was held in greatest esteem. Legends about him were told by travelling folk singers (similar to Celtic bards, "ozan" in Turkish) even after conversion to Islam. Osman, founder of the Ottoman dynasty, is not venerated as such however (there are some myths regarding his father, Ertugrul---nothing of hero-worship sort however) The article I had mentioned pointed out that Oguz Turks -might- have equated St. George with Oguzhan.

 

[Secret Master]

Would we make a distinction between two different kinds of saints?

That is, if I have enough influence in the Church, and have enough money, power, armies, etc., could I have my favorite Pope declare dad a saint? Or would we include only "appropriate" sainting of our monarchs? If we included the option to manufacture sainthood, would it work differently than your monarch who really did act saintly?

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by Havard
So far I don't know if we have had any info on this from P/S. It would be interresting to hear though. And a cool feature. It should be possible for persons amassing enormous amounts of piety, and should bring piety bonuses to later generations too ("My father, the Saint").

Pretty cool idea. Perhaps it could be reversed as well, declaring your dad to have been the next best thing to the devil should carry a hit to reputation and the like.

 

[Vandelay]

Too bad us Turks don't have any, sainthood was a different concept for the Seljuks and Ottomans (save for the odd fascination Ottomans had for Saint George which continued to this day---we have an icon of St. George in my family house despite being Muslim

What about that Eyup fellow at whose tomb every new sultan was brought as some sort of "coronation" (bad comparison but can´t think of a better word right now)?

BTW St Erik of Sweden was never canonized and as such is not recognized by the Church - so maybe one could differentiate between claiming sainthood and having that claim accepted by the Holy Father? It´s said that in CK dynasts can influence the Holy Father - but through what means? Amassed Piety and Prestige points? A chestful of ducats?

It would also be cool if a dynast can "persuade" the Pope to declare an other dynast excommunicated.

/Vandelay

 

[unmerged(8523)]

maybe having some proclaimed a saint should be a multi-step process akin to "good relations > marriage > vassalage > annexation".

maybe one of your country's kings or character from history who has good stats and amasses many "points" with them can be nominated. then, i'd guess having them be cannonized would be the end result of a long period of good relations with the pope or ecumenical council or whatever.

kind of like this: saint stephanos the fictional starts out as a general for hungary with good stats. since he's in a special category he can recieve special points for fighting against the turks, saracens, or pagans. if he gets like 1000 points during his lifetime or as a result of his campaigns say 10 or so provinces that were previously not catholic belong to a christian power, then he automatically gets cannonized after his death. if he gets too little nothing happens, but if he gets a minimum, like 500 or whatever, then his name pops up on a "nomination" list that you can submit to the pope when your mutual relations are high enough. then, if you and the pontiff are tight after 50 years or so, he proclaims general stephanos as saint stephanos the fictional.
(whoo-hoo!)

steph

 

[unmerged(255)]

Originally posted by Vandelay


What about that Eyup fellow at whose tomb every new sultan was brought as some sort of "coronation" (bad comparison but can´t think of a better word right now)?

That's still one of the most visited places in Istanbul "Eyup Sultan" is certainly venerated, and his tomb pretty much serves the same purpose as the Aya Yorgi church on Büyük Ada. Eyüp was a commander in the Muslim army that besieged Constantinople in 8th century. Mehmet II "the Conqueror" built a beautiful mosque at that spot after the conquest of Constantinople.

There are, by the way, hundreds of such figures---Sari Saltuk, Haci Bektas Veli (see my signature ) and other "ermis," a Turkish word that means "enlightened," too numerous to list here. What I meant rather, was that these people were not declared "ermis" by some religious authority; there wasn't a formal canonization process.

Islam itself, lacked an established concept of sainthood, so whatever "holy men" the common folk venerated either reflects an earlier Christian tradition that people continued (quite possible in the case of St. George) or certain
pre-monotheistic practices: i.e. ancestor / spirit worship, many scholars suggest that Alevite "dedes" (Alevis being a heterodox sect of Islam, who mainly live in modern day Turkey, some 20 million people) are heirs to the Turkish "shamans" of pre-Islamic times.

 

[Deaghaidh]

I would like to see two values for piety, a dynastic one (an average, or overall one for your family) and an individual one. Thus you can have a saintly Prince and a younger brother who does the dirty work of scheming, plotting, etc. A lot of royal families seemed to have that going on.

How this would effect sainthood is if you once had a ruler who's individual piety was very exceptionally high, and a dynasty with perhaps less exceptional but still good piety, and having friendly relations with the Pope (or better yet, have him be *your* Pope), then you can have a saint-King in the past, giving your present-day dynasty a big prestige and piety boost (and perhaps a temporary happiness/loyalty boost in your territory).

 

[Vandelay]

Thus you can have a saintly Prince and a younger brother who does the dirty work of scheming, plotting, etc. A lot of royal families seemed to have that going on.

The Crusader King equivalent of good cop, bad cop

The idea of having an accumulated dynastic prestige and piety score as well as individual dynast prestige and piety score is great - they should both factor in when trying to effect/ control the Holy See and the various Militant Orders as well as when you press claims on other lands as well. Gold should do the trick as well...

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[Norgesvenn]

I'm just hoping that sainthood (if included) won't be like "Defender of the Faith" in EU II, something you buy for a 1000 ducats, and lose before you know it...

What qualified for sainthood? Obviously, spreading the gospel, so you might even become a saint after ravaging the heathen countryside, converting by the sword.

Piousness and building ecclestical buildings would most probably qualify as well.