Sailor mutinies

[Rhion]

Seems awfully complicated...

And how do you decide in which port they get to revolt? German sailors joining a revolt when stationed on a far-away asian island, let's say Taiwan, wouldn't make much sense. But if you limit it to ports with their own culture/nationality, then it's easily exploitable by not stationing your ships there.

So in mho, you'd end up with a complicated, yet useless feature.

 

[alvaro]

looks kind of ... anecdotal, doesn't it?

 

[unmerged(15485)]

I think it is a good idea, but for it to seamlessly integrate with the rest of the rebel experience it needs ships to be bound to POPs. Not sure if that's in the game. You could also just tie it to the harbour the ship considers "Home", but it wouldn't be as integrated with the rest of the system as tying it to a POP.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Seems awfully complicated...

And how do you decide in which port they get to revolt? German sailors joining a revolt when stationed on a far-away asian island, let's say Taiwan, wouldn't make much sense. But if you limit it to ports with their own culture/nationality, then it's easily exploitable by not stationing your ships there.

So in mho, you'd end up with a complicated, yet useless feature.

Why useless? And why complicated? Recruiting divisions from POPs was not complicated in Vic1, recruiting ships wouldn't be either. Just pick a port city with a soldier POP when you order the ship. If the POP dies, assign it a new port province soldier POP.

Navies are an integral part of the game. Have you ever played through a Vic1 game to the 1930s? You end up with navies of 100s of ships. If the game is serious about linking POP militancy with military loyalty then your navy should not be left out.

looks kind of ... anecdotal, doesn't it?

How is the event that led to the end of WW1 anecdotal? Or the Kronstadt rebellion? Those were pivotal events in the 20th century.

I think it is a good idea, but for it to seamlessly integrate with the rest of the rebel experience it needs ships to be bound to POPs. Not sure if that's in the game. You could also just tie it to the harbour the ship considers "Home", but it wouldn't be as integrated with the rest of the system as tying it to a POP.

Well you could introduce "naval manpower" which would be recruited from soldier POPs just like army manpower. I never claimed to know the perfect recipe to do this but I'm sure there is a way to integrate it.

 

[alvaro]

How is the event that led to the end of WW1 anecdotal? Or the Kronstadt rebellion? Those were pivotal events in the 20th century.

allez, yes, you're right and I agree with your points but we have to keep in mind that the engine is not going to be driven by historical events anymore and I think that playing your random game always scared of this or that boat that can destroy the next 10 years of game plans...dunno...i would not build a single ship!

 

[Trin Tragula]

This seems like expansion material to me. I have a feeling getting rebells to use ships is going to take some work.

I do like the idea though (and agree that it could be made intuitive by linking ships to soldier pops in the provinces they are commissioned).

 

[unmerged(75409)]

allez, yes, you're right and I agree with your points but we have to keep in mind that the engine is not going to be driven by historical events anymore and I think that playing your random game always scared of this or that boat that can destroy the next 10 years of game plans...dunno...i would not build a single ship!

Ships would not be more likely to mutiny than divisions or regiments, and you're not going to lay off of building those, are you?

Some nations will be huge in navies. Imagine you're playing France and you beat Britain in yet another long war. You overran all of Africa, crushed their invasion forces on the continent, and only their navy remains in the fight. They have not conceded defeat yet. Imagine the feeling when now you see the Royal Navy in the Channel hoist the red and black banner of revolt, and turn into port in Southhampton in mutiny... and you know, *now* your time has come, now His Majesty's government will give you anything for peace! That should be a rewarding moment, the moment when you have broken your enemy! The idea is that important things which could happen in real history, should be able to happen in Victoria 2 too, outside of a straightjacketed true-to-history event system.

With the changes that King mentioned in the rebel system, there will always be a risk that one single revolt by a POP or a regiment sparks off a huge uprising. But for that to happen, the country needs to be in very high militancy and the rebel movements need to be organized already. Else you just get a revolt that fizzles. The random naval mutiny by some destroyer in Africa would be just that sort of thing... a little fizzle that you hardly notice. The ship would be back under discipline before you can say "HMS Bounty".

It would just be in those troublesome times when your country is seething with rebellion, after a counter-revolution or a lost war or a huge political event, that you would need to fear your soldiers turning their rifles and guns on you. But that would hardly be a change, and should be a welcome addition to the gameplay.

This seems like expansion material to me. I have a feeling getting rebells to use ships is going to take some work.

I do like the idea though (and agree that it could be made intuitive by linking ships to soldier pops in the provinces they are commissioned).

I am thinking so, too. But the game is only due late in 2010, maybe they might still consider it.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

This seems like expansion material to me. I have a feeling getting rebells to use ships is going to take some work.

I do like the idea though (and agree that it could be made intuitive by linking ships to soldier pops in the provinces they are commissioned).

Hell, Paradox hasn't even gotten normal country AIs to properly use ships yet.

 

[unity100]

Indeed - this is actually quite a significant issue in the period, with the Kronstadt example also being incredibly important in the 1917 Russian revolution.

However, as there are no sailor POPs I'm not sure how it could really be implemented without it being an odd incongruous feature...

it wasnt a significant issue in the period. mutinies were rare unless in case of full scale revolutions.

a ship needs ports to dock and get supplies. it is not a willy nilly affair for a battleship with a 2000 strong crew to mutiny.

russia exception doesnt change anything. there were no other significant cases. and even russian navy revolted because the city, base, area which they were in already revolting. its not like they revolted against their port.

 

[ollobrains]

well in the fan made mod of arsenal of democracy if u capture a port with ships in it and ships guarding it i found u can capture and make those ships youre own

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Mutiny would be better represented by ships returning to port and refusing to put to sea. This happened quite often. Ships openly turning and firing on their own ports... less so. That's why ships should only 'rebel' in the context of an all-out civil war IMO.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Cool idea. Unfortunately naval matters usually end up being the most underdeveloped parts of Paradox games. Not that they don't try, but...

 

[Kaiserschmarrn]

The random naval mutiny by some destroyer in Africa would be just that sort of thing... a little fizzle that you hardly notice. The ship would be back under discipline before you can say "HMS Bounty".

Speaking of wich, i hope we get to play as pitkern!

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Speaking of wich, i hope we get to play as pitkern!

Oh God yeah. Pitcairn WC would be the ultimate Peter Ebbesen endboss.

 

[th3freakie]

I'd say just allow naval units to rebel same as land units, even if on sea. Very small probability, very big effect if it happens. All Glory to the Potemkin and Aurora!

 

[telesien]

well in the fan made mod of arsenal of democracy if u capture a port with ships in it and ships guarding it i found u can capture and make those ships youre own

That was already in HoI2, which blue emu used to his amusement. Apparently collecting french carriers Bearn can be very rewarding, since you can have 3 of them.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

I'd say just allow naval units to rebel same as land units, even if on sea. Very small probability, very big effect if it happens. All Glory to the Potemkin and Aurora!

Not really worth representing on a strategic level.

 

[unmerged(71032)]

More annoying than rebel whack-a-mole?

So this time, it would be whack-a-whale?

 

[th3freakie]

Not really worth representing on a strategic level.

Non-sense! This should be the mark of a revolution for any nation with a Navy.

 

[Orinsul]

it shouldnt be attriction as well it seems to me that all the major mutinies happened in Port, Maybe an event chain for high War Weariness countries which has the potential to throw the nation completely into chaos should the war end badly.

Coupled with the occasional event that for unhappy ships to turn rebel or switch sides in a war or something, but i dont think an underlying mechanic would be any good not when there is the option of events