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ConjurerDragon said:
If we check if either side owns at least one province of the other side and the event does NOT fire if neither side owns something of the other - shouldn´t we then not still have an event that has the effect of the current "moderate" B choice to remove the cores even if no provinces are seceded?
Why? In this case safety events (the one you scripted for OE and missing one for Safavids) should handle situation even if Treaty can fire after them and before 1700.

ConjurerDragon said:
Answered there.
Fine



ConjurerDragon said:
Then the removecore would need to be added to PER 254020 A and B
command = { type = removecore which = 472 } #Iveria
Agreed.
 

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The missing PER event:
Code:
#(1639-1820) We have failed to retain Iveria
event = {
	id = 254026
	trigger = {
		NOT = {
			owned = { province = 472 data = -1 } #Iveria
		}
		core = { province = 472 data = -1 } #Iveria
	}
	random = no
	country = PER
	name = "EVENTNAME254026" #We have failed to retain Iveria
	desc = "EVENTHIST254026"
	#-#There is no longer any point in conquering Iveria.

	date = { day = 17 month = may year = 1639 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { year = 1820 }

	action_a = {
		name = "DAMN"
		command = { type = removecore which = 472 } #Iveria
	}
}
TUR_301128 and PER_254026 should be slept if cores are removed with Kasr-i Sirin events.

For the description of Kasr-i Sirin:
EVENTHIST3387;The Treaty of Kasr-i Sirin (also known as Treaty of Zuhab), signed between the Ottoman Empire and Persia in 1639, established borders that have changed little to this day. Hostilities between the two great empires decreased remarkably following the treaty as their relations steadily improved until 1722 when war broke out again. However, the treaty was dusted off and renewed in 1747.;;;;;;;;;;
 
Last edited:

Garbon

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I'm still against this event sequence (I don't really see how anything has fundamentally changed -- i.e. it is still gross determinism!), but I don't think the existence of one of those buffer states should prevent it.


BTW, I've only run two tests so far, but Safavid-Ottoman borders look a bit better pre-Zuhab, if those two forced war commands are removed.
 

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Garbon said:
I'm still against this event sequence (I don't really see how anything has fundamentally changed -- i.e. it is still gross determinism!), but I don't think the existence of one of those buffer states should prevent it.
We can remove the sequence and see what happens... In this case, safety events will remain to handle lost cores after 1639.

Garbon said:
BTW, I've only run two tests so far, but Safavid-Ottoman borders look a bit better pre-Zuhab, if those two forced war commands are removed.
Involved events:
Code:
#(1575-1580) The Turko-Persian Conflicts: Murad III's campaigns against Persia
event = {
	id = 3562 #triggered by TUR_3362 A
	random = no
	country = PER
	name = "EVENTNAME3562" #Turko-Persian Conflicts: Murad III's campaigns against Persia
	desc = "EVENTHIST3562"
	#-#

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3562A" #Teach the Turk a lesson!
		[COLOR=Red]command = { type = war which = TUR }
		command = { type = land value = 200 }
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3562B" #Ignore the Ottoman threat[/COLOR]
		command = { type = casusbelli which = TUR value = 60 }
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
	}
	action_[COLOR=Red]c[/COLOR][COLOR=Yellow]b[/COLOR] = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3562[COLOR=Red]C[/COLOR][COLOR=Yellow]B[/COLOR]" #Seek diplomatic solution
		command = { type = DIP which = 8 value = 24 }
		command = { type = relation which = TUR value = 50 }
	}
}
#-#Murad III, a Sultan ruled by women, fought the Persians in an exhausting war (1578-90) that severely strained the Empire and forced heavy taxes upon the citizens. Though the war was not for nothing--Persia had to cede Azerbaijan, Tiflis and Hamadan to the Ottomans--the resources might have been better spent elsewhere.

If war command is removed in action_a. There is a balance problem with action_b.

Code:
#(1603) The Turko-Persian Conflicts: Persians take advantage of Ottoman instability
event = {
	id = 3363 #triggered by PER_3563 A
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "EVENTNAME3363" #Turko-Persian Conflicts: Persians take advantage of Ottoman instability
	desc = "EVENTHIST3363"
	#-#

	[COLOR=Red]action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3363A" #This means War!
		command = { type = war which = PER }
		command = { type = MIL which = 4 value = 24 }
		command = { type = land value = 200 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
	}[/COLOR]
	action_[COLOR=Red]b[/COLOR][COLOR=Yellow]a[/COLOR] = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3363[COLOR=Red]B[/COLOR][COLOR=Yellow]A[/COLOR]" #Concentrate on the rebels
		command = { type = ADM which = 4 value = 24 }
		command = { type = infra value = 200 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
	}
}
#-#The Spahi revolts in Eastern Anatolia encouraged the Persian Shah to seek revenge for the humiliating losses incurred by Murad III. War broke out yet again in 1603.

ACTIONNAME3363A could be reworked.

EDIT: events amended according to post #205.
 
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Garbon

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I think that may be the best solution for the time being.

True, option b is quite bad...perhaps we should just remove option b and put its effects in place of those in option a. After all, we don't need the increase in stability if Persia isn't declaring war and the land boost seems rather artificial.

For 3363, I think we might just drop action a. After all, why should the Ottomans get a military boost and why should the rebels be more voracious in such and option? I don't really think the Ottomans need a choice once the war command is gone.
 

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Garbon said:
I think that may be the best solution for the time being.
For Kasr-i Sirin, I suppose.

Garbon said:
True, option b is quite bad...perhaps we should just remove option b and put its effects in place of those in option a. After all, we don't need the increase in stability if Persia isn't declaring war and the land boost seems rather artificial.

For 3363, I think we might just drop action a. After all, why should the Ottomans get a military boost and why should the rebels be more voracious in such and option? I don't really think the Ottomans need a choice once the war command is gone.
Post amended.
 

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YodaMaster said:
For Kasr-i Sirin, I suppose.

Post amended.

Yoda what did you mean in the Évents renumbering thread with used TUR event numbers after *removal* of Kasr-i-Sirin?
 

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Garbon said:
The freeing up of IDs of removed events.

Sure, but I have not even noticed that even 1 of the events of Kasr was removed. Changed yes, but which one was removed?
 

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Garbon said:

Isn´t that somewhat overdone? I mean we discuss a sequence that was at one time added to the mod, then we discuss about additional secedecommands, about a trigger that makes it much less likely and the situation more historical to trigger - and then the entire sequence is gone?
 

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Not really. After all, since I started discussing it, it hasn't been much about what is to be ceded but about how to make the sequence applicable to the game (with the statement made that it is vital to keeping the region in tact). Given our inability to develop a working solution and the quick notice that the region doesn't look so bad once we've removed the war commands from the TUR-PER sequences, then there wasn't really much need for the event at the moment. After all, why include a scripted peace treaty if it is unnecessary and wasn't working quite correctly anyway?
 

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I can't express better. This is exactly the conclusion I had.

Anyway, as usual, I kept a copy of the removed events.
 

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Garbon said:
Not really. After all, since I started discussing it, it hasn't been much about what is to be ceded but about how to make the sequence applicable to the game (with the statement made that it is vital to keeping the region in tact). Given our inability to develop a working solution and the quick notice that the region doesn't look so bad once we've removed the war commands from the TUR-PER sequences, then there wasn't really much need for the event at the moment. After all, why include a scripted peace treaty if it is unnecessary and wasn't working quite correctly anyway?

Because:
- the treaty of Kasr/Zuhab would after the extensive changes to it´s trigger conditions fire much less often and would alone from this never again be the problem you described it to be before those suggested trigger changes,
- would only fire it the Ottomans were much closer to their historical expansion so that your fear that a crippled OE would receive provinces as alms from a giant Safavid empire would no more be possible (even when it was very rare already before).
- would only fire if both sides actually do own at least one province of the other so that it could never be the case that one side receives nothing in exchange for a province what you feared.

That the border looks better now after the removals of the forced wars using war commands is good - but that also means that the Kasr/Zuhab event sequence is in addition to the trigger conditions even less likely to exchange as you put it "massive numbers of provinces".
 

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You've not actually shown then that there would be any benefit to having the sequence, only than it would most likely not occur in a bizarre fashion. Given the option of having a scripted peace that could go wrong (although not very frequently) or not having the scripted peace, I'd always opt for the latter.

Unless you're suggesting that the Treaty of Zuhab would simply raise Ottoman/Safavid relations and remove those few extra cores per history. That I could support.
 

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Garbon said:
Unless you're suggesting that the Treaty of Zuhab would simply raise Ottoman/Safavid relations and remove those few extra cores per history. That I could support.
Wouldn't this end with the same trigger conditions problem?

At least description of the two remaining but previous safety events for removing cores could be reworked to mention the treaty. And both events could include a relations increase between OE and Safavids because of this loss.
 

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Does action_c and Sunni religion make sense in following event, especially since Kara Koyunlu is Shiite at start in 1419?

Code:
#(1494-1597) The Shia State of Shah Ismail
event = {
	id = 21817
	trigger = {
		monarch = 0104506 #Ismail I
		owned = { province = 487 data = -1 } #Azerbaijan
		control = { province = 487 data = -1 } #Azerbaijan
	}
	random = no
	country = PER
	name = "EVENTNAME21817" #The Shia State of Shah Ismail
	desc = "EVENTHIST21817"
	#-#

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1494 }
	offset = 5
	deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1597 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME21817A" #It shall all be shiite!
		command = { type = religion which = shiite }
		command = { type = missionaries value = 4 }
		command = { type = capital which = 487 } #Azerbaijan
		command = { type = population which = 487 value = 1000 } #Azerbaijan
		command = { type = provincetax which = 487 value = 2 } #Azerbaijan
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = persian }
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = kurdish }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = turkish }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = persian }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = kurdish }
		command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = 1 }
		command = { type = population which = -1 value = -50 }
		command = { type = population which = -1 value = -50 }
		command = { type = population which = -1 value = -50 }
		command = { type = population which = -1 value = -50 }
		command = { type = population which = -1 value = -50 }
		command = { type = population which = -1 value = -50 }
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME21817B" #Strongly suggest conversion
		command = { type = religion which = shiite }
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = missionaries value = 2 }
		command = { type = capital which = 487 } #Azerbaijan
		command = { type = population which = 487 value = 1000 } #Azerbaijan
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = persian }
		command = { type = remove_countryculture which = kurdish }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = turkish }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = persian }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = kurdish }
		command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = -2 }
		command = { type = population which = -1 value = -50 }
		command = { type = population which = -1 value = -50 }
	}
	action_c = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME21817C" #We are Sunnis!
		command = { type = religion which = sunni }
		command = { type = missionaries value = 4 }
		command = { type = stability value = -6 }
		command = { type = capital which = 487 } #Azerbaijan
		command = { type = population which = 487 value = 1000 } #Azerbaijan
		command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = religiousrevolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 8 }
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -4 }
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = -2 }
		command = { type = relation which = TUR value = 75 }
		command = { type = removecore which = 1530 } #Khorasan
		command = { type = removecore which = 1531 } #Herat
		command = { type = removecore which = 526 } #Meched
		command = { type = removecore which = 1529 } #Birjand
		command = { type = removecore which = 535 } #Hormuz
		command = { type = removecore which = 525 } #Elbruz
		command = { type = removecore which = 527 } #Kerman
		command = { type = removecore which = 536 } #Mekran
		command = { type = removecore which = 537 } #Baluchistan
		command = { type = removecore which = 538 } #Kalat
		command = { type = removecore which = 1525 } #Qandahar
		command = { type = removecore which = 1526 } #Zahedan
		command = { type = removecore which = 1528 } #Kushka
		command = { type = removecore which = 1529 } #Birjand
		command = { type = sleepevent which = 236100 } #MUS: Shiite Persia
	}
}
#-#The Safavid sect found itself vying for political power when supported by their militant turkish Shia followers. Although of persian ancestry, the Safavids had adopted a turkic dialect. During Ismail's rule, turkish nobles would have the most sway in court. Upon taking Tabriz, Ismail, with the support of his militant followers, proclaimed Shia the faith of the land. Religion was to prove a unifying point for the Safavid state.


And why 1597 as deathdate when Ismail dies in 1524? Couldn't we improve name and description in order to cover the 1524-1597 period?
 

Garbon

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YodaMaster said:
Wouldn't this end with the same trigger conditions problem?

At least description of the two remaining but previous safety events for removing cores could be reworked to mention the treaty. And both events could include a relations increase between OE and Safavids because of this loss.

I don't have the same enmity to a loss of a few "historically lost" cores. That said, I think you're proposed solution is best.
 

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YodaMaster said:
Does action_c and Sunni religion make sense in following event, especially since Kara Koyunlu is Shiite at start in 1419?

I think so. Even with our change the Kara Koyunlu religion, it is most definitely not the case that Shia was the predominant religion in the land.

I think the 1597 date has something to do with Abbas's move of the capital to Isfahan and the fact that by that date, Abbas was widely tolerant of religion. There would be much impulse to have the state covert by that point. I suppose we could rename the event name to "The Shia State of the Safavids" but I wouldn't change the description.
 

unmerged(40707)

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Mar 1, 2005
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Garbon said:
I think so. Even with our change the Kara Koyunlu religion, it is most definitely not the case that Shia was the predominant religion in the land.

I think the 1597 date has something to do with Abbas's move of the capital to Isfahan and the fact that by that date, Abbas was widely tolerant of religion. There would be much impulse to have the state covert by that point. I suppose we could rename the event name to "The Shia State of the Safavids" but I wouldn't change the description.
Ok for the name.