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Akreal

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As you can see from name of the post I think changing Persia name with Safavid is better. Because in that time there was no Iranian(Persian) country in that region. Safavid is based on Shia Azerbaijaini Empire. Thats why I think changing name is right thing to do.
 
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AirikrStrife

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But you can also form Persia as Baluchtistan or Khorasan etc. Safavid is a bit too specific to have as an Iranian culture union. Especially since in the game it is rarely achieved as an Azerbaijani state and would not actually have the Safavid dynasty ruling.
 
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Dynasty names are in general best avoided, primarily for the disconnect of "Safavids" being led by the "Osmanaglu" family, or similar cases. As well it's just a matter of good procedure, as almost all nations are named after historical names for the state, rather than ruling dynasty. That said, clearly there are exceptions, but so long as there's an appropriate name for a tag already (like Persia) then I see no reason to change it.

All that said, some flavor in events relating to the nature of Safavid Persia on the other hand would be excellent, though I know not enough to think of them myself.
 
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Mortheim

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As you can see from name of the post I think changing Persia name with Safavid is better. Because in that time there was no Iranian(Persian) country in that region. Safavid is based on Shia Azerbaijaini Empire. Thats why I think changing name is right thing to do.

There are so much interesting things about Safavid Persia and you decided to suggest changing name?

Where is event about "third force" that consisted from armenians, georgians and circassians? Their rivalry with qizilbash, their impact on society, army and other stuff.
Why there is no event about moving armenians to persian hearthlands from Persia-owned Armenia to create a buffer zone between Persia and Ottomans? This was one of the best examples of scorched earth tactics!

Isfahan is mountain province, while city stands on river and has fields with irrigation channels? There were special district for resettled armenians. Population of the city, its development and its wealth was nearly like Paris (~600.000 people lived in Isfahan in the middle of 17th century, Paris had nearly 500.000).

Oh, and what about tolerance towards christians? Yeah, they were tolerated and participated, as i mentioned earlier, in life of the state. Why? Huge christian elemnt in structure of the state!

Heck, some historians claim that Persia during Safavid period was meritocratic state. Yes, it was hierarchical, but you were able to get position of power even if you were from low class!

Oh, and talking about science and culture...Isfahan school, heard about it? Oh, well, it was beautiful. Yes, in some aspects it wasn't as good as european (depiction of humans for example), but there were practically nude womens and lovers and suchlike! Muslim state, yes. I won't talk about calligraphy, because it was sooooo freacking beautiful.
Hell, Safavids themselves loved art and, often, created it (poems, paintings and other compositions).
Mulla Sadra? Heard about him? Oh, he is one of the most important philosophers for Islam. and, maybe, second only to Avicenna. Heck, there is even school of philosofy - School of Isfahan. Some historians even claim, that Persian were true heirs of great islamic thinkers of the Golden Age of Islam.
And, by 16th century, Islamic Science meant Persian Science. Yeah, they had some problems and weren't developed in some areas, but even Europeans from time to time used their works.

No information about Zurkhanehs.

No changes to internal structure in game - with three forces: persians who dominated the bureaucracy and clerical positions, turks-qizilbashes(?) who dominated military, and, later, caucasians who removed huge influence of quazilbach in military and watered down persians on bureacrutic and scientific positions.




And here you are, Akreal, proposing to change name...Do you think, that your suggestion is plain boring and brings nothing to the game? This game can teach people about other countries, while they will have fun playing it. It can help people to read and to start learning about other cultures and countries. And here we are. In thread about changing name of one of the most interesting countries during EU4 time period.



PS: i'm really sorry that i'm toxic, so you have all rights to disagree with me, cause it isn't the appropriate behavior on forum. It's injustice towards the country with such a huge and glorious history that triggered me.
 
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Tufto

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As you can see from name of the post I think changing Persia name with Safavid is better. Because in that time there was no Iranian(Persian) country in that region. Safavid is based on Shia Azerbaijaini Empire. Thats why I think changing name is right thing to do.

The Safavids were the rulers of Iran, who actively used that title, operated in a Persianate cultural milieu, and used Persian as the language of administration. Yes, the native language of the Shahs was Azeri (not that it would have been called that, since an Azeri identity did not exist for a long time after), but that does not mean that the Safavid state was anything other than an Iranian one; it would be like saying Britain was a German state under George I.

Moreover, Persia is also used to represent the Afsharid, Zand and Qajar dynasties, for which the above also applies.
 
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Trin Tragula

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The Safavids were the rulers of Iran, who actively used that title, operated in a Persianate cultural milieu, and used Persian as the language of administration. Yes, the native language of the Shahs was Azeri (not that it would have been called that, since an Azeri identity did not exist for a long time after), but that does not mean that the Safavid state was anything other than an Iranian one; it would be like saying Britain was a German state under George I.

Moreover, Persia is also used to represent the Afsharid, Zand and Qajar dynasties, for which the above also applies.


This is more or less exactly what I come here to post. The above is the reason the current tag is named what it is. :)

As long as it makes sense (which is a big if in many cases) we also employ a general preference for geographic names over dynastic or capital based ones.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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@Trin Tragula
Half of topic.

In that case should not Ming/Qing be removed favor of China or something else?

Yah, it was a bit of a complicated situation, not just in the EU4 timeline which already has an example of it, but both before and after it aswell.

During EU4 timeline, both Ming and Qing existed at the same time. Originally Ming was the ruler of China and was basically China, afterwards Qing was the ruler of China and was basically China. So you really can't just call them China.

Naturally after EU4's time period(just to give an example), we have another example of two China's existing at the same time, the Republic of China, and the Peoples Republic of China. Heck, technically this situation still exists today.

And before the EU4 period, one of the examples is the Jin Dynasty to the north, and the Song Dynasty to the south.

China's history is full of examples like this, and it is why I am sometimes unsure if representing China as a single country is the best way to do it.
 

Warial

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NO for "Dynasty State"!

In Europe we have "France" not "Valois" or "Bourbon". Russia is Russia, but not "Rurikid" or "Romanov"
What system is used in Europe should have no bearing on the rest of the world. The cases of China and Japanese prove the point the best. That said, Persia being called so is the best choice.
 
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IMO the best choice for Persia would technically be Iran (because that's what the people who live there have called it for three thousand years), but hey, I can write a mod to satisfy myself on that score :)
 
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Martin_Mortyry

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What system is used in Europe should have no bearing on the rest of the world. The cases of China and Japanese prove the point the best. That said, Persia being called so is the best choice.
Except China and Japan are pretty unique examples - they need special dynastic tags, Persia doesn't. Anyone could've created Persia in EU4's timeframe - Aq Qoynlu came really close, some other noble family could've done it too. The more universal the tags are, the better!
 
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What system is used in Europe should have no bearing on the rest of the world. The cases of China and Japanese prove the point the best. That said, Persia being called so is the best choice.
Exception is not a rule. Postmongolian Persia/Iran always was as Persia/Iran in diplomacy or internal law.
 
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