- Mar 17, 2001
Bash said:You will laugh - this land has name of "Vyborg".
Bash said:If you will insist on keeping just another shitty province - suit yourself - it was your part of Scandinavia. Just take in a minute notice - you must keep game balance - then 34 Scandinavian province would be quite shitty in comparison with just 17 Russian "core-land" provinces and this number include "Karelia", Ural-mountains area and all Ob-provinces!
I've got an impression we will calculate resulting province value as part on province in question in National GNP of some country in question of some time-period. It would means - if you give "Vyborg/Karelen/South Karelen" province annual income of 1 ducati, it would mean "Moscow" province would receive around 25-27 ducati as result.
In other case some Muslim countries of Al-jazair region, which receive a lot of provinces, would get some fantastic annual revenues. More then that - China region, which is bursting now with new provinces, would be "rich as Croesus".
Price for bailiffs, governors and faith conversion and such would raise accordingly.
It means majority of Finnish provinces of Sweden would receive some quite weird numbers like 0.3 - 0.4 in present situation, but due to fact we can't give them partial numbers, they would get rather universal quantity of 1 ducati per anno.
Huge benefit for Swedish economy, revolt risks and stab costs.
That's where you're wrong, my friend.
At present (latest EEP/AGC) Sweden has 45 in base tax. These will be rearranged (I presume) in the new provinces so that the total base tax of the new Swedish map will be 45. Scandinavia as a whole has 125 base tax with 45 in Sweden, 54 in Denmark and 26 in Norway (Iceland and Greenland included). The Russian minors have a combines 88 base tax.
In the EU2 timeframe Sweden never fought a war against Russia with the other Scandinavian countries involved, so matching the Russian tax against the Swedish shows that Russia has almost twice the tax that Sweden has.
Bash said:It wouldn't be any issue for me as Russian player, because I'd like to see Sweden as feeble as possible, but in AGC-EEP approach these lands wil eventually drop in Russian lap - then I've got a real concern in these issues. I haven't any desire to have a bunch of absolutely shitty provinces as Great Northern War result.
Well, it means - Sweden wouldn't be any treat to my country in Livonien War or in Times of Troubles - and it is good thing. OK.
Pls, get any medicine if it would utterly cripple any Russian enemy in long run. You can Finnmark for this purpose as well, we are exterminating our Kola anyway.
I agree that Viborg-Karelia won't be much of a catch for Peter I, but it wasn't back then either. Owning Viborg prevented sneak attacks against St. Petersburg and that was the most important thing. The true wealth in his conquests lie in Estonia and Livonia and the fact that he could build a port in Ingermanland.
As you know the Swedish advantage didn't lie in manpower or wealth, but in leadership, tactics and technology. THAT is how Sweden will defeat Russia in the 17th century and THAT is why Russia will defeat Sweden later on.
Bash said:It means - we MUST insist on port in "Ingermanland" province. Suit yourself with your part of chart we would suit with ours. St.Petersburg must receive its port anyway.
Vyborg has its own port, St.Petersburg has its own (and we are making a really big nuclear submarines in ST.Peterburg port - if you are wondering).
I know that St. Petersburg has a very big port. But since Russia didn't have a proper Baltic fleet until the Great Northern War removing the port in Ingermanland would prevent Russia from building a fleet in the Baltic ahead of time.
Bash said:My initia propose was TI - not "closed lake", but majority decided to "close" this area by Scandinavian peninsula.
If Finnmarken is turned into PTI it's easy to extend that PTI to the edge of the map.
Bash said:Suit yourself. It would be another absolute shitty province with 1 or 0(!!!) ducati per anno. In other way Moscow province (for balance keeping) would receive more ducati then whole Sweden. (If you start to divide rather big GNP on 34 - each province would receive less then in case if you start to divide slightly lesser GNP onto 17 provinces where 5-6 provinces are big and other are shitty). Add to this equation expenses for just one Moscow bailiff to improve russian economy with a lot of bailiffs for lot of shitty provinces. And mind you - basic price of bailiffs will raise (for keeping balance reasons) in very dramatic manner. (We must punish some North-Africans for their magnitude of "new" provinces in midst of Desert, do you see?).
Promoting bailiffs, and other officials will cost more with more provinces but that can be taken care of through events if needed.
Bash said:I don't think about it. I know - Vyborg belong to Sweden in starting setup.
Suit yourself. I would prefer to give this province to Novgorod and then yield this province to Sweden very fast - due to constant problem - Kexholm used to be converted to Orthodoxy for good, because it came to Russian posession when Russia hadn't another spending except fath conversion. And Orthodox Kexholm is quite bad sight-seeing of any historian.
You want Kexholm to be Swedish at the start to prevent it becoming orthodox? Again, that might be changed through events: "Catholic Finnish immigrants move to Kexholm" or whatever. It will, just as you say, be hard to prevent Novgorod from converting it, though.
Bash said:Please, just understand one simple idea - if we start to follow method of calculating province value from initial GNP of country - only "Kexholm" of Novgorod would have equal value to sum of all Finnish provinces in Sweden posession - or you must cripple "core-Swedish" lands for keeping Finnish lands value.
The redistribution of wealth over the new provinces has to be historical. An extremely rich Kexholm is not very historical at all. Better then to add the excess wealth to Novgorod or Moscow.
Bash said:I repeat - suit yourself, but remember - Karmar Union GNP would be divided between all your 34 (or such) provinces. Then we will calculate responding values for Muscovy' and Novgorod' lands.
It would means - all Scandinavian countries would be absolute "dwarves/Zwergs" in long run from - technology advance point of view (tech speed is function of provinces number .
Oh, by the way, it is history real picture - well done, you (and guys from Polish part of Forum) are crippling your countries fast enough for any Russian player pleasure. No strong Sweden, no strong Poland - this game is starting to be quite joy-riding for any Russian player indeed.
Sincerely yours, Bash
Poland was a LOT more powerful than Sweden in the early part of the game, so that's a bit sad IMHO. Sweden should get a boost in a period from the mid 1500's and the mid 1600's to be able to rise. Poland, in turn, would start its decline in the 1600's...