Russian westernization

[unmerged(177849)]

New player here, I've missed the boat on the following, and am wondering though if there would have been any way around this problem aside from what I propose below.

Russia, westernization prior to The Time of Troubles:

You can form Russia around 1520 or thereabouts (limiting factor is admin tech level ten). That gives you plenty of time to westernize. But wait! In order to westernize, you need to be at least 8 tech levels behind your western neighbor. But, assuming admin tech 10, and military tech 10 (don't want to fall too far behind militarily), you need to not advance diplomatic tech at all (and even then it might be close - you might need to slow down a bit in military tech as well). 10 plus 10 plus 3 (starting diplo tech) is 23 tech levels, meaning you would need a neighbor with at least 31. Which is not guaranteed by 1520.

Of course you can stop gaining tech once you form Russia, wait maybe 10 years by 1530 you probably will have a neighbor with 31 or more. But again this relies upon not advancing diplo tech at all. (Too late for me on that; it is lagging, but is at 6 in 1504). Or lagging in both diplo and military tech - obviously 10 admin is non negotiable if you are going to form Russia.

Am I missing something?

 

[eugene171]

you can westernize before forming Russia, as Muscovy.

for westernizing Russia, I suggest taking Expansion as your first idea so you fall behind in diplo tech. Don't advance diplomacy at all until after westernization.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Thanks. Too late for me this game. Given those two options, I'm not entirely sure that I care that much - waiting till after the ToT to westernize probably isn't the end of the world, I would think.

 

[Xara]

you can westernize before forming Russia, as Muscovy.

Time of Troubles affects Muscovy OR Russia. Not forming the nation does not prevent it.
Novgorod is the nation that can westernize and potentially avoid ToT while forming Russia.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Well I think his point is that, if you aren't worrying about getting to admin tech level ten quickly for forming Russia, you can avoid the problem of your aggregate tech level being too high for early westernization. But if you want to get both westernization AND form Russia before the ToT, then yeah westernizing first probably doesn't help that much.

A moot point for me in my game I think. Oh, I could basically stop tech advancement in both military and diplo - I have idea groups to dump points into - then stop admin at 10 (at which point I'll conveniently have another idea group slot to use on religion and dump my admin points into that). That will leave me with 24 total tech levels. So wait for Denmark to hit 32 - maybe around 1530? Haven't played enough yet to get a strong sense of when they will hit 32. They are at 25 in 1504. And then 20 years to westernize before ToT. But I don't think early westernization is worth going through all of that, especially since there is a risk of not being done westernizing before 1550, in which case it will be hard to avoid ToT.

Unless someone here can convince me that 120 years delay in westernization is going to cripple my progress. (Actually, having a strong Denmark, soon to be Scandinavia, as a neighbor may be a reason to rush westernization. With western units and (eventually) higher military tech, they may chew me up. Though I'll certainly have a numerical edge.)

Edit - though concentrating on ideas does have the added edge of accelerating the Siberian national idea, allowing me to start colonizing before I get expansion as my 4th idea group. Maybe I need to re-think this and go for early westernization after all. If I do, I think I'll probably also use the dump admin points into buildings then cancel them exploit. I'm not too proud. )

 

[Xara]

If you really want to rush westernization, just keep Diplo tech at 3 and let mil / adm fall one behind each. If you are at 8 / 3 / 8 in 1518, a western nation should be hitting 9 / 9 / 9 territory just around then

Pick a diplo set and mil set, culture convert, use admin points to core and for boosting stab before starting. Build as many temples or whatnot before you hit it and cancel them the same day after doing so. Get a +1 dip/mil advisor and have money saved up to afford a +3 admin, preferably an artist

The longer you wait, the more points you will have 'wasted' on eastern-group techs. Unless you are significantly threatened by an opponent, getting it done sooner will save you more in the long run.

As a counter-point to that, of course, the early game is when you start the process of steamrolling, so doing it early sets you back compared to doing it much later when you've secured your home area completely and crushed the major opposition

Either way its a few decades of complete boredom

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Well yeah, except that precludes early formation of Russia. Which may indeed be the right call - i.e., if you have to choose between Russia and westernization before the ToT, westernization may be more important.

But for my current game - I'm not starting over - that option is pretty much precluded, as I am already at 8/6/8. As I said, I could get to 10/6/8, form Russia, and hope that Denmark hits 11/11/10 (or some combination thereof) in time for me to westernize before ToT, but that looks risky. Or stay at 8/6/8 and give up on forming Russia till after the ToT, with some small risk that I'll be too late for westernization even then.

Live and learn. As I said, only been playing a little more than a week.

 

[Xara]

Forming Russia is irrelevant if you started as Muscovy. They get the same events.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Don'e you get additional accepted cultures?

 

[Xara]

Don'e you get additional accepted cultures?

Sure, but you can't avoid the Time of Troubles by NOT forming Russia if you are Muscovy.

 

[unmerged(177849)]

Oh, I know that. I want to do it first just so I don't have to wait till after, and can't really do it during.

As I said, at tech levels 8/6/8 in 1504, it's probably a moot point anyway.

 

[Inkshootr]

You really don't NEED to westernize as Russia. Their amazing National Ideas more than make up for any penalties the Eastern techgroup incurs.

 

[grommile]

You really don't NEED to westernize as Russia. Their amazing National Ideas more than make up for any penalties the Eastern techgroup incurs.

Though having Western units is certainly nice.

 

[Novacat]

Though having Western units is certainly nice.

Eastern units are fine, just use very little cavalry.

 

[FearTheAmish]

Westernizing before time of troubles can cause ToT to trigger because you will have below +2 stab so make sure you either do it Before 1550 or after 1650.

 

[durvas]

If you're big enough, you can Westernize fairly easily during the ToT because it will not happen as long as you are in positive stab (at least +1). This relies on having enough provinces to get back enough ADM from buildings on the first day. Just don't advance ADM techs unless you're at 999 or your king is kind of old.

 

[Straigthtsilver]

In my opinion, Westernizing as Russia just isn't worth the cost of monarch points or the frustration. Eastern units can stand toe-to-toe to Western units for most of the game. The late-game disparity isn't particularly important because it's fairly easy to bridge through ideas, and let's be honest how many people have the patience to even get to the last tier of units?

The technology boost from westernization isn't even worth mentioning, considering the Eastern tech group can comfortably keep pace with Western even without Russia's incredible national ideas or Innovative/Aristocracy/Plutocracy.

 

[BoleslavLev]

I westernized in between 1550 and 1650 as I am usually unable to do it before 1550 and I want to westernize between 1580 (start) and 1600 (finnish). The best way is probably to do it before 1550 or with Novgorod (I did that too and they are O(h my God!)P as Hell!).

With Muscowy, I deliberately lower my stability and force ToT to fire soon - after it, I was able to westernize with ease. The bad thing is you have no guarantee it will fire.

 

[panionios]

You don't need to waste any MP and with proper management can press the button around 1535 and be done and back at +2 stab by 1550.

1.Make sure you border the Livonian Order. They are small and have nothing to spend their ADM MP except for tech/ideas. So they are among the top countries tech-wise. If possible, vassalize (I always do).
2.Take mil. idea/expansion at reaching levels 4 and 7 (I usually take offensive at 4 and expansion at 7 because I need the DIP points as I go wild conquering everyone while LIT and SWE are in a PU and can't join a coalition against me).
3.Do reach level 10 ADM.
4.By 1535 you should be at ADM 10, DIP 4-5 and MIL 6-7. By that time the Livonian Order should have something like 10-11-12 or 11-11-12.
5.On westernizing, fire all advisors and hire a level 3 ADM advisor (+3 ADM and he should give you at least 1 positive stab event). You can also do the trick with building ADM buildings in all your provinces and after westernizing, undoing the action to get that ADM back and reach 900 sooner (to go to 0 stab immediately - don't do it before to avoid losing stab to bad events).

 

[Incompetent]

You really don't NEED to westernize as Russia. Their amazing National Ideas more than make up for any penalties the Eastern techgroup incurs.

Indeed. Eastern tech penalty is really only 15%, as you can get the Western Arms bonus. Throw in the 10% from NIs, and you're almost at parity. Plus a non-Westernised Russia even gets the Grand Embassy events to help it along a bit.