Russian troops, or Eastern troops as a whole, a bit stronger than they should be?

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Novacat

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The history of Russia past the 15th century is one of continual expansion at the expense of the neighbouring hordes. Only the intercession of the Ottoman Empire stopped the Crimean Khanate from collapsing, and the other eastern hordes (who weren't so fortunate) were crushed with relatively little difficulty.

The Ottomans only provided financial support to the Crimeans for much of the Crimean Khanate's existance.

There is also the Crimean campaigns in 1687 and 1689 that failed spectacularly for Russia

Exactly, it was nowhere near a full-scale war of the sort that would be represented in EUIV. I agree that the Chinese techgroup needs to be massively buffed, but that doesn't mean they should be able to defeat a Western or even Eastern power in direct combat.

China should be able to match eastern power, at minimum. China's decline and eventual submission to colonial powers did not happen until after 1820, EU4's end date.
 

FearTheAmish

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The Ottomans only provided financial support to the Crimeans for much of the Crimean Khanate's existance.

There is also the Crimean campaigns in 1687 and 1689 that failed spectacularly



China should be able to match eastern power, at minimum. China's decline and eventual submission to colonial powers did not happen until after 1820, EU4's end date.

You neglected the rest of that War... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Turkish_War_(1686–1700) which ended in Russia winning territorial gains as well as diplomatic gains. Only reason it Ottomans and their allies didn't get more of a thwacking was because Sweden was growling up north.
 

Novacat

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Straigthtsilver

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The Ottomans only provided financial support to the Crimeans for much of the Crimean Khanate's existance.

There is also the Crimean campaigns in 1687 and 1689 that failed spectacularly for Russia

I would hardly define having to withdraw while having nearly the entirety of your forces intact to be 'failing spectacularly.' Not to mention the campaigns failed because of logistics. Moving several hundred thousand men across empty steppe is not exactly easy. The Crimean Khanate did not defeat the Russians in some incredible battlefield victory, and when they did fight they lost!


China should be able to match eastern power, at minimum. China's decline and eventual submission to colonial powers did not happen until after 1820, EU4's end date.

Not exactly, I'd say they should be able to match the Muslim tech group at best. Even Russia was far beyond China in terms of technology and military by the end of the game timeline.
 

Novacat

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I would hardly define having to withdraw while having nearly the entirety of your forces intact to be 'failing spectacularly.' Not to mention the campaigns failed because of logistics. Moving several hundred thousand men across empty steppe is not exactly easy. The Crimean Khanate did not defeat the Russians in some incredible battlefield victory, and when they did fight they lost!

Kind of amusing considering that the Russians used the exact same tactics against Napoleon. Pot calling kettle black much?

Even if you assume that Crimean decline happened in the 1600s as opposed to the 1700s, EU4 is still not historical considering that in EU4, Steppe Horde troops are obsolete by 1500.

Not exactly, I'd say they should be able to match the Muslim tech group at best. Even Russia was far beyond China in terms of technology and military by the end of the game timeline.

Got some examples?
 

Straigthtsilver

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Kind of amusing considering that the Russians used the exact same tactics against Napoleon. Pot calling kettle black much?

First off, blaming Napoleon's defeat entirely on poor weather and logistics is a French scapegoat. The cold of the Russian winter only came after the French had already been defeated in pitched battle. Second, and more importantly, how does Napoleon's campaign have anything to do with a war against nomadic Tatars more than a century earlier?


Got some examples?

Examples of what? The entirety of the Qing army is an example if you want to compare it to the European armies of the Napoleonic era.
 

FearTheAmish

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First off, blaming Napoleon's defeat entirely on poor weather and logistics is a French scapegoat. The cold of the Russian winter only came after the French had already been defeated in pitched battle. Second, and more importantly, how does Napoleon's campaign have anything to do with a war against nomadic Tatars more than a century earlier?




Examples of what? The entirety of the Qing army is an example if you want to compare it to the European armies of the Napoleonic era.


Basically this also Crimea was subjugated by the Russian's eventually. So unlike Napoleon they succeeded later on.
 

Novacat

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First off, blaming Napoleon's defeat entirely on poor weather and logistics is a French scapegoat. The cold of the Russian winter only came after the French had already been defeated in pitched battle. Second, and more importantly, how does Napoleon's campaign have anything to do with a war against nomadic Tatars more than a century earlier?

Have you actually read up on history?

On 7 September the French caught up with the Russian army which had dug itself in on hillsides before a small town called Borodino, seventy miles west of Moscow. The battle that followed was the largest and bloodiest single-day action of the Napoleonic Wars, involving more than 250,000 soldiers and resulting in 70,000 casualties. The French gained a victory, but at the cost of 49 general officers and thousands of men. The Russian army was able to extricate itself and withdrew the following day, leaving the French without the decisive victory Napoleon sought.[12]

Napoleon entered Moscow a week later. In another turn of events the French found puzzling, there was no delegation to meet the Emperor. The Russians had evacuated the city, and the city's governor, Count Fyodor Rostopchin, had ordered the city to be burnt.[13] Napoleon's hopes had been set upon a victorious end to his campaign, but victory in the field did not yield him victory in the war. The loss of Moscow did not compel Alexander I to sue for peace, and both sides were aware that Napoleon's position grew worse with each passing day. Napoleon stayed on in Moscow looking to negotiate a peace, his hopes fed in part by a disinformation campaign informing the Emperor of supposed discontent and fading morale in the Russian camp. After staying a month Napoleon moved his army out southwest toward Kaluga, where Kutusov was encamped with the Russian army.

The French advance toward Kaluga was checked by a Russian corps. Napoleon tried once more to engage the Russian army for a decisive action at the Battle of Maloyaroslavets. Despite holding a superior position, the Russians retreated following a sharp engagement, confirming that the Russians would not commit themselves to a pitched battle.[14] His troops exhausted, with few rations, no winter clothing, and his remaining horses in poor condition, Napoleon was forced to retreat. He hoped to reach supplies at Smolensk and later at Vilnius. In the weeks that followed the Grande Armée starved and suffered from the onset of the Russian Winter. Lack of food and fodder for the horses, hypothermia from the bitter cold and persistent attacks upon isolated troops from Russian peasants and Cossacks led to great losses in men, and a general loss of discipline and cohesion in the army. When the remnants of Napoleon's army crossed the Berezina River in November, only 27,000 fit soldiers remained; the Grand Armée had lost some 380,000 men dead and 100,000 captured.[15] Following the crossing of the Beresina Napoleon left the army, after much urging from his advisors and with the unanimous approval of his Marshals.[16] He returned to Paris by carriage and sledge to protect his position as Emperor and to raise more forces to resist the advancing Russians. The campaign effectively ended on 14 December 1812, not quite six months from its outset, with the last French troops leaving Russian soil.

The Russians lost every battle they fought with the French until the French were dying of cold and hunger.

Examples of what? The entirety of the Qing army is an example if you want to compare it to the European armies of the Napoleonic era.

Chinese inferiority.
 

Straigthtsilver

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Have you actually read up on history?

The Russians lost every battle they fought with the French until the French were dying of cold and hunger.

Yes I have actually, because I had to write a university paper on this a few weeks ago. I had to refer to scholarly resources and books, not wikipedia.

Of the dozen or so authors I read, with Dominic Lieven being my favorite, all agreed that the French army was first destroyed in pitched battle following the retreat from Moscow, and then finally disintegrated by attrition.

Did they suffer attrition prior to that? Of course they did, this was the early 19th century were vastly more troops died from disease than actual combat. That doesn't mean the Russians sat back twiddling their thumbs while the French marched about the place.

Furthermore, the Russians 'lost' the battles prior to the French retreat in the same way you could argue the Crimeans 'lost' during the campaign in the late 17th century. The Russians had no intention of fighting Napoleon in pitched battle while his forces were intact because that would have been suicidal! So all of the battles prior to the retreat were delaying actions and rearguards who were meant to withdraw.
 

Incompetent

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Eastern units are fine, although upgrades are a bit patchy and they need another generation of cavalry in the late game. It's the Muslim and Steppe tech groups that need much better unit types to keep Russia in check. I don't see the justification for non-Europeans having such bad units compared to Europeans *at the same tech level* - the tech penalty alone gives Europeans enough of an advantage (watch what happens when one Western country gets 2-3 mil techs ahead of another Western country), so there's no need for a double whammy.
 

Old Joe

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Units are fine.
And I'm very agree with replacement of Russias AI expansion from China to Poland-Lithuania and baltics.
slavic bothers still not liberated, but ai always marching for those no-one-needs manchus! jeez!
 

Novacat

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Units are fine.
And I'm very agree with replacement of Russias AI expansion from China to Poland-Lithuania and baltics.
slavic bothers still not liberated, but ai always marching for those no-one-needs manchus! jeez!

The reason why the Russians always attack China instead of Lithuania is that, on average, the AI always likes attacking the weakest powers. Lithuania and Sweden/Denmark end up being quite strong for most of the game, so usually it ends up turning eastward for expansion since the Steppe Hordes and Chinese are weak.
 

Incompetent

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Units are fine.
And I'm very agree with replacement of Russias AI expansion from China to Poland-Lithuania and baltics.
slavic bothers still not liberated, but ai always marching for those no-one-needs manchus! jeez!

The AI chooses the path of least resistance, just like most players.
 

The Colonel

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Yes I have actually, because I had to write a university paper on this a few weeks ago. I had to refer to scholarly resources and books, not wikipedia.

Of the dozen or so authors I read, with Dominic Lieven being my favorite, all agreed that the French army was first destroyed in pitched battle following the retreat from Moscow, and then finally disintegrated by attrition.

Did they suffer attrition prior to that? Of course they did, this was the early 19th century were vastly more troops died from disease than actual combat. That doesn't mean the Russians sat back twiddling their thumbs while the French marched about the place.

Furthermore, the Russians 'lost' the battles prior to the French retreat in the same way you could argue the Crimeans 'lost' during the campaign in the late 17th century. The Russians had no intention of fighting Napoleon in pitched battle while his forces were intact because that would have been suicidal! So all of the battles prior to the retreat were delaying actions and rearguards who were meant to withdraw.

While this is very off topic I love the fact that when Napoleon sent out foraging parties the Russian peasants would capture them, torture them, and then bury them alive. Loved Russia versus Napoleon.

The Battle of Borodino was not really a delaying action, just a poor decision that war largely forced on Kutozov by the higher-ups desire for a battle instead of more retreat.
 

FearTheAmish

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I love how this thread started as a complaint about Russia being OP, and now it's a history debate with guys throwing links to wikipedia at each other

yeah i honestly should have just stuck with L2P OP...
 

Novacat

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srsly muscovy is just not that powerful in this game.

Somewhat true. A human player on the other hand is limited to about 280,000 troops before they run out of leaders, divided into 70K stacks which is the upper limit on supply. Thats assuming you pick Innovative idea group, otherwise it would be 210,000. That is why I prefer Sweden to Russia, since Sweden is focused more on quality than quantity. Countries with a free leader however can field a whopping 350,000 since they would have 5 free leaders as opposed to 4.

The AI does not have this limitation as they get tons of extra free leaders, so an AI Russia is actually pretty damn effective.

Its also this reason I tend to grow my empire to only 100-200 provinces, then feed off extra provinces to vassals.

Play poland, build cav, destroy all...

Cav sucks in EU4, unfortunately. Brandenburg and Sweden are much more powerful, even Japan is more powerful.
 

SacredDatura

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Okay, I have a question. I haven't played EU4 for very long, but I think EU3 had the exact same problem as well. Why do the different tech group's armies have to vary so wildly in quality? Why is this mechanic necessary? Different tech groups already tech at different rates, so theoretically as the game went on the Indians etc. would begin to lag behind in tech and therefore only have access to lower-tech, inferior units anyway, right? Making the different tech groups' armies so qualitatively different seems to create so many problems (such as the Russians and other westerners preying on Asian countries with their ridiculously superior armies a couple of centuries ahead of schedule) that seem like they could be fixed by just having everyone use units of roughly the same quality, that it seems counter-intuitive to introduce this mechanic in the first place.