Russian troops, or Eastern troops as a whole, a bit stronger than they should be?

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SerFishy

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I saw another thread about tweaking Russians and I'll elaborate on the issue in a different way:

I got involved in a few battles with Muscovy with 20 military tech as Ottomans and I noticed something while fighting in Anatolia: relative strength of troops were pretty ahistorical.

Historically, Russia heavily depended on conscripts, mostly peasants, as soldiers and they lacked proper training for obvious reasons. Also, their equipment was not that good as well for a long time - they mostly used poor rifles and poor uniforms, made by blacksmiths and even themselves, which they brought to battles themselves.

Ottomans, on the other hand, relied on both elite soldiers trained since childhood, Janissaries, and properly trained volunteers - Azabs, but mostly on Janissaries as the core infantry units along with cavalry from vassals and stuff. Their equipment was also pretty good- they had their own headquarters where they would distribute the uniforms and mostly standardized rifles, since 1400s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary#Equipment). So they should have better morale and way better fire than Eastern units and relatively better firepower than Western troops until late periods, right? They don't though and infantry doesn't even have fire until a bit later than 1500s whereas in real life, they all had standardized rifles. But that's a different issue and I may open a new thread about why Ottoman tech tree is all wrong but I'll discuss Russian troops now.



Russians have a neat bonus for manpower and they can combine this with quantity for the renowned bearstacks of around 30, which come in bundles of 5 or 6 and gets replenished nonstop without running out of fuel. That's ok, that's what Russians did throughout the history, right? But they also have proper units and that's where the problem begins. They have full discipline and they can use offensive to get even more discipline. So, they don't have just bearstacks but rather elite doomstacks, and they can squish every single army on the world after they annex the hordes and stuff.

My opinion is: Russia needs a penalty to unit discipline. Russian soldiers were not bears and they would most certainly not be equals of Reformed Janissaries with 150% discipline. They were mostly some peasants with hunting rifles and would get devastated even with 2 times the numbers in an offensive war against Ottomans until late 1700s.
 
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Darkath

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Are we playing the same game ? Ottoman troops are the best available in the early game, but slowly fall out of fashion compared to western troops during the 1500s and eastern troops later.

But don't forget that if you play with lucky nations on, Muscowy gets bonuses and usually have pretty good leaders (which are often more or equally important than the quality of troops themselves)

The decline of both Ottoman and Eastern efficiency is well represented in game, and if you want to keep up with western troops, you have to westernize.

I'm currently playing lithuania in a Multiplayer game and while i was a major power for most of the game due the sheer quantity of my troops (i destroyed the russian player early on), I finally had no choice but to westernize in the 1700s because my troops were absolutely worthless.
 

Novacat

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The decline of both Ottoman and Eastern efficiency is well represented in game, and if you want to keep up with western troops, you have to westernize.

Eastern troops do not decline that badly... by Tech 30 Infantry Eastern has 52 pips, Western has 60 pips, Ottomans have 38 pips, Muslims have 37 pips, Indians have 32 pips, and Chinese have 28 pips. Eastern is the only tech group that can fight vs Western and win in the endgame.
 
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Darkath

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Eastern troops do not decline that badly... by Tech 30 Infantry Eastern has 52 pips, Western has 60 pips, Ottomans have 38 pips, Muslims have 37 pips, Indians have 32 pips, and Chinese have 28 pips, so Eastern is in very good shape compared to all the other tech groups, except western ofc.

Polish troops can hold their own a bit longer thanks to their ideas, but the rest get absolutely slaughtered from tech 21 onwards. You can still win as eastern tech against the AI if you take lots of military ideas a pile up massive stacks, but in multiplayer, forget about it.
 

Novacat

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Polish troops can hold their own a bit longer thanks to their ideas, but the rest get absolutely slaughtered from tech 21 onwards.

Nah, you just need to outnumber your opponents, you can still pull it off. Its all the other tech groups that are screwed, since they are so pitifully easy to stackwipe with western, and even eastern, troops. A huge part of the reason why Russia often intos China.
 

grisamentum

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China is a total joke. Apparently any European power could have conquered all of China in 1560 with a mere 15,000 troops.

This game is beyond ridiculous sometimes.
 

Novacat

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The main reason is that the Chinese tech group not only covers China, but also covers Japan, Korea, Indochina, and Indonesia (the latter two were heavily colonialized during EU4). Japan and China should really be split off into their own tech group, IMHO.
 

SerFishy

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Honestly this seems like a troll thread. Can't wait for the resident Russians to show up...

They won't...as in the Russo-Manchu conflict...

Are we playing the same game ? Ottoman troops are the best available in the early game, but slowly fall out of fashion compared to western troops during the 1500s and eastern troops later.

But don't forget that if you play with lucky nations on, Muscowy gets bonuses and usually have pretty good leaders (which are often more or equally important than the quality of troops themselves)

The decline of both Ottoman and Eastern efficiency is well represented in game, and if you want to keep up with western troops, you have to westernize.

I'm currently playing lithuania in a Multiplayer game and while i was a major power for most of the game due the sheer quantity of my troops (i destroyed the russian player early on), I finally had no choice but to westernize in the 1700s because my troops were absolutely worthless.

That may be the issue, actually. Maybe I should go for some ideas and stock some monarch power until I fall slightly behind the most advanced ones before 1700s...

Also, well, Ottoman troops are the best in the early game but still, they don't have fire pips at the beginning and Yaya soldiers are not so much better than its counterparts. It is a bit unrealistic considering they already had cannons and advanced firearms in mid 1400s though they are still the best. (in early game)
 
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FearTheAmish

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okay for some reason you think you are playing USSR from 1930 -1991 not Russia. Russia during this time period used Stretlsy which were a class of basically elite infantry and were rather large in scope. Their Cavalry was made up of Boyars and Cossacks some of the best Cavalry in history. Were as Ottomans did use Janissaries but you must remember they were elite household troops not their entire army. The rest was pretty abysmal its why Russia Historically basically beat the crud outta the Ottomans for most of the middle to late game period. Only reason they didn't own much more of Turkey during the times of WW1 was because of the Crimean War were Russia kicked the tar out of the Ottomans and then France/England got involved to keep them from expanding.
 

lordelenath

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Russia got their ass handed by the hordes for quite some time though before they started to become a world power. Sadly the hordes in EU IV are a joke. Anyway, as has been said already, the Ottomans have very good units until about 1650-1700 as far as I remember (although if I play them i generally westernize in the 1500s because I hate to not be western tech group).

I'm sure there're nations having issues with Russia (namely far eastern ones and hordes), but the Ottomans aren't one of them for sure. If they've grown to a decent size (which sadly does not happen every time, not sure why) the Ghazi idea provides them with a manpower pool comparable to Russia - in my opinion it's probably one of the most powerful NIs in the game. The ability of the Ottomans for comebacks in seemingly lost wars is pretty impressive due to this one bonus, as well as enabling them to fight attrition wars as effectively as Russia in my experience.
 

SerFishy

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okay for some reason you think you are playing USSR from 1930 -1991 not Russia. Russia during this time period used Stretlsy which were a class of basically highly trained infantry. Their Cavalry was made up of Boyars and Cossacks some of the best Cavalry in history. Were as Ottomans did use Janissaries but you must remember they were elite household troops not their entire army. The rest was pretty abysmal its why Russia Historically basically beat the crud outta the Ottomans for most of the middle to late game period. Only reason they didn't own much more of Turkey during the times of WW1 was because of the Crimean War were Russia kicked the tar out of the Ottomans and then France/England got involved to keep them from expanding.

Nope, Streltsy were basically city guards... Whereas, Janissaries were the mainstream infantry (Along with the Azabs but the Janissaries were the essential troops in any battle). Also, it is not the Crimean War but the Bolshevik Rebellion, or, the October Revolution as it is also called.
 

Straigthtsilver

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Russia got their ass handed by the hordes for quite some time though before they started to become a world power. Sadly the hordes in EU IV are a joke. Anyway, as has been said already, the Ottomans have very good units until about 1650-1700 as far as I remember (although if I play them i generally westernize in the 1500s because I hate to not be western tech group).

I'm sure there're nations having issues with Russia (namely far eastern ones and hordes), but the Ottomans aren't one of them for sure. If they've grown to a decent size (which sadly does not happen every time, not sure why) the Ghazi idea provides them with a manpower pool comparable to Russia - in my opinion it's probably one of the most powerful NIs in the game. The ability of the Ottomans for come backs in seemingly lost wars is pretty impressive due to this one bonus.

Yes, the period where Russia got its ass handed to it by the hordes is Crusader Kings 2. The start of the EUIV era is when Russia rebounded and started demolishing the hordes and expanding rapidly.

Nope, Streltsy were basically city guards... Whereas, Janissaries were the mainstream infantry. Also, it is not the Crimean War but the Bolshevik Rebellion.

Nope, the Streltsy had fully organized regiments and were considered frontline troops. There were city guard Streltsy, but they were used for exactly that, guarding cities and fighting fires.

And how the hell do the Crimean War and Bolshevik Revolution have anything to do with EUIV or the era it's set in? Though if you're trying to argue that the Ottoman armies were anything but a joke past the mid-1750s, you've been reading some truly terrible (and presumably Turkish-funded) history books.

To be perfectly honest, this entire thread just looks like OP being butthurt that the Ottoman techgroup's units aren't undefeatable gods for the entire timeline.
 
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-Malovane-

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Hmm. In my Muscovy games, I find that I really do need to Westernize to compete with Western troops, at least in the mid to late game. I remember one recent game where a single 60k french stack went around wiping my 30k stacks in 2 days (2 days!) apiece, and there wasn't anything I could do about it. Instant morale wipe. Yes, they had a super general, as they often do - but still. Utter carnage that prompted a rage quit. 300k men dead in a month - and I was ahead of them in tech by two levels.

An Eastern tech Prussia is survivable, and can still dominate. Playing a Poland->Prussia->HRE game, where I've solidified the HRE and am beating up on France like nothing - and have dropped Muscovy manpower and troop counts to 0. Muscovy doesn't get anything really in the way of modifiers - except a lot of manpower and force limits. Hordes of crappy soldiers. That seems to be what you want - so I'm not sure what your issue is with them.
 

SerFishy

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And how the hell do the Crimean War and Bolshevik Revolution have anything to do with EUIV or the era it's set in? Though if you're trying to argue that the Ottoman armies were anything but a joke past the mid-1750s, you've been reading some truly terrible (and presumably Turkish-funded) history books.

To be perfectly honest, this entire thread just looks like OP being butthurt that the Ottoman techgroup's units aren't undefeatable gods for the entire timeline.

That guy was talking about the WWI and I'm pretty much sure it was after 1821, if my terrible books are not wrong. Also, I don't care about Ottoman tech group being defeatable but we both know Russians are a bit overpowered with their doomstacks and that's what I'm talking about. They should not be able to beardance on Western or Ottoman troops with their drunk bearstacks, sieging Athens and ile-de-France and stuff, in early and mid game while sometimes having a break in Moskva and returning in full numbers, gosh...
 
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lordelenath

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Yes, the period where Russia got its ass handed to it by the hordes is Crusader Kings 2. The start of the EUIV era is when Russia rebounded and started demolishing the hordes and expanding rapidly.

I really don't want to start another history discussion, but I think you should look that up once more. Off the top of my head I can think of several Khanates still existing independently in the 1500s and even 1600s, the Crimeans even winning several wars against Russia in the early EU IV time period.
 

FearTheAmish

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Nope, Streltsy were basically city guards... Whereas, Janissaries were the mainstream infantry (Along with the Azabs but the Janissaries were the essential troops in any battle). Also, it is not the Crimean War but the Bolshevik Rebellion, or, the October Revolution as it is also called.

Moscow Regiments were city guards the provincial Streltsy were Border guards/garrison in times of peace. During times of war they were frontline troops. Also Janissaries were palace guards..... Seriously read the links...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streltsy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries
 

Novacat

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Yes, the period where Russia got its ass handed to it by the hordes is Crusader Kings 2. The start of the EUIV era is when Russia rebounded and started demolishing the hordes and expanding rapidly.

Russia's eastward expansion did not occur until the 1600s, and the Hordes were still militarily competitive until the 1700s. Some hordes were still around even in the mid-1800s.

Theres also the issue that the Russians in EU4 are expanding into China when historically they fought the Chinese and lost.

An Eastern tech Prussia is survivable, and can still dominate. Playing a Poland->Prussia->HRE game, where I've solidified the HRE and am beating up on France like nothing - and have dropped Muscovy manpower and troop counts to 0. Muscovy doesn't get anything really in the way of modifiers - except a lot of manpower and force limits. Hordes of crappy soldiers. That seems to be what you want - so I'm not sure what your issue is with them.

They are not that crappy. They still shit all over chinese/indian tech troops for example.
 

Straigthtsilver

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I really don't want to start another history lesson, but I think you should look that up once more. Of the top of my head I can think of several Khanates still existing independently in the 1500s and even 1600s, the Crimeans even winning several wars against Russia in the early EU IV time period.

Notice how I said started to rebound at the beginning of the EUIV era? The battle of Kulikovo took place a few decades before the 1444 start and represents the beginning of the end of Tatar power in Russia. Sure you still had hordes around for the next couple of centuries (with the Crimean surviving well into the 18th), but they were either Russian satellites or collapsing rapidly.

Russia's eastward expansion did not occur until the 1600s, and the Hordes were still militarily competitive until the 1700s. Some hordes were still around even in the mid-1800s.

By the mid 1800s, the 'hordes' that remained were little more than loose tribal states in Central Asia. Their military power in comparison to Russia (who had reached its zenith) was essentially nil and they were slowly annexed over the course of several decades.
 
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FearTheAmish

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That guy was talking about the WWI and I'm pretty much sure it was after 1821, if my terrible books are not wrong. Also, I don't care about Ottoman tech group being defeatable but we both know Russians are a bit overpowered with their doomstacks and that's what I'm talking about.

Yes using that as a graspable time period but from 1500 onward Russia was in a continual state of expansion. Yes there were remnants of the mongols still around but after 1500 they were in continual retreat. Thing is historically Ottomans stopped gaining territory and started going in decline as early as 1600. Except during the Time of Troubles were they lost territory to both Poland and Sweden but not to the Ottomans. Russia was pretty scare thing to most eastern countries.