Russian peace in 1941

[zeekater]

Been reading a book and found something I had never heard of before:

The Russians were ready to seek peace with the Germans in 1941, even at the expense of a lot of territory! (alla the treaty of Brest-Litovsk)

This isn't the 'official' after-war stance of course, just like the stance of the German generals after-war was that they lost because of the lunatic Hitler.

Apparently, Pavel Soedoplatov made contact with the Bulgarian embassy in an attempt to negotiate for peace. He got his orders from Beria, who got his orders from Stalin. Zhukov overheard a conversation between the 2, end of july 1941; "... make contact with the German intelligence service through your agents, en find out what the Germans would want from us if we offer a seperate peace proposal".
Soedoplatov was to ask 4 things:
1. Why did Germany break the non-agression pact with the USSR?
2. At what conditions would Germany agree to stop the war?
3. Would territorial expansion in the Eastseastates, the Ukrain, Bessarabya, Boekovine and the Karelian peninsula be sufficient for the Germans,
4. If not, what territories would the Germans like to see added?

I've only read about this in this one book, for the first time. The book states however that this has only been found recently by professor Vladimir Naumov.
The book: 'Operation Barbarossa' by Laurence Rees

Thought this might be a nice event to add
The German AI chance of accepting it should be really low though.
There should probably also be other negative sides for a human player, who'd otherwise always accept.

Any thoughts/ideas?

 

[jose1357]

Yah, I've read this...the unique response from the bulgarian ambassador was that the SU would win anyway...such confidence in your allies

 

[zeekater]

Yah, I've read this...the unique response from the bulgarian ambassador was that the SU would win anyway...such confidence in your allies

As said in the AFTER WAR report on the event
The report was made in an 'attack' against Beria after the war BTW.

The convo that Zukhov overheard (which he told a friend Viktor Antilov in 60's when he was out of grace) between Stalin and Beria was in october 1941.
The peace proposals were in july 1941 (of which Soedoplatov is certain), so we got a few months in between. Which could mean that there were more then one attempts, with the agreement of Stalin.

 

[Van der Gent]

Thought this might be a nice event to add
The German AI chance of accepting it should be really low though.
There should probably also be other negative sides for a human player, who'd otherwise always accept.

Any thoughts/ideas?

You would get a higher chans that it would be in the game* if you post that in the Stony Road forum...

* In the mod HSR...

 

[zeekater]

Unfortunatly that mod is offline

Besides, I can add them myself, so I'll just download that mod, and add my own stuff and tweaks

It gets more attention here, and I was trying to get peoples thoughts on it

 

[unmerged(31881)]

1)
Had seen mention of this before as a reprise of Brest-Litovsk.
Never seen the breakdown of territories, i.e.: Ukraine, Moldavia, Karelia, the Baltics.

2)
Unless Zhukov knew Georgian, he couldn't have been eavesdropping.
If he wasn't eavesdropping... who other than Stalin and Beria was involved?
Don't suppose Antikov mentions the exact day in October?
In which case it could be compared to the record of who visited Stalin at that point.

3)
Did the Bulgarian ambassador ever relate the offer?
From what i remember of accounts, they were sounding him out on German reaction to talks.
That's when the famous "you will win anyway" is said to have been uttered.

4)
Would the Germans have accepted? (e.g. in July, i'm sure Hitler would have rejected any offer out of hand)
Any mention or record of the offer being recieved on the German side?
Haven't heard of any German memoirs of the "Hitler should have made peace before December 41" variety.

5)
Assuming the offer was made, and Hitler was willing to accept (two big IFs)...
Was it seriously intended in the first place?
Pretty sure i read somewhere it was more a ploy aimed more at the Allies than anything else.
If a separate peace was made with the Axis, e.g. England would be in quite a lurch.

6)
This would make a decent event, with odds between slim and nil.
Even still, less wacky than the current Bitter Peace.
Sverdlovsk? Vladivostok? Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line seems more reasonable.

7)
Good show, old chap. Never mind the mind the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
If it doesn't get into v1.3, well... modders can still find the idea free for the taking.

 

[zeekater]

2) the book mentions 'start of october', and he didn't eavesdrop, but was asked in, said hello to stalin but he wasn't listening but talking to beria and zhukov overheard some words.

3) the only thing the book said about that, is the 'you will win anyway'. But the report is an afterwar report, so it doesn't mention what happened in between july and october.

4) no the germans wouldn't have accepted
By that time they had taken millions of POW's already and didn't want a humiliating peace.

5) the after war stance was that it was but a mere distraction to win time, and that Soedoplatov and Beria were working on their own. But you have to bare in mind, that even if the attempt was serious, they would have said it to have been a mere distraction after the war...

 

[unmerged(31881)]

2) ii)
What i meant was that Beria and Stalin both spoke Georgian.
Unless Zhukov understood the language, how would he know?
Seems strange they would switch to Russian just for Georgi.

5) v)
The author's tone was more along the lines:
"Stalin was a bad man who did this very sneaky thing for very sneaky reasons!"
In any case, it's a possible interpretation of a possible event which may or may not have occurred.
Inside a country which at the time was a riddle wrapped inside an enigma.

Either way, all the evidence (and even the lack of it!) argues for inclusion of an intesting event like this.