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unmerged(652342)

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It's more complex than that. Besides, you gain more by catching up and thus recovering some of these 800(2400) MPs you invested.
- you dont really fall behind as eastern or ottoman tech group, so i dont think that you will recover anything substantial from catching up, especially considering that with current "westernization" system as an ottoman or eastern nation you actually need to artificially refrain from teching (usually it is diplo tech) to even hit the "magic button" anyway.
But on the other hand, with current rampant ROTW westernizations this can lead to some hilarious situations when some god forgotten kingdom or tribe in the middle of nowhere will have better tech than european ottoman and eastern tech empires.
 

nicechinos

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Westernisation math is not that hard.
You lose at least 2800 points (2400 directly, almost 300 from stab hit [you can't avoid as times of troubles is not fun], merchants/advisers resisting westernization will hit at least once ). That's a cost of an idea group. Let's say you are gunning for innovation, which is a must have group. It gives you permanent tech discount of 5%, completing it would give 14% discount for admin tech ("for ideas"). So admin tech would be cheaper if you don't westernise. It means that you'll be saving only 30 point per tech (60 in general, 120 if you don't run Western Arms Trade all game, which is easy in case of Muscovy).
The other part is that you have to spend 2800 to get 30 saving per technology. That's 93 technology to breakeven. There are not enough technologies in diplo and milititary for that.
Westernisation is worth only if you are going for WC and hence for protectorates.
 

nicechinos

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You might want to try this. http://imgur.com/3LHJhz5
If you want this.
http://imgur.com/sUrgiQ3
http://imgur.com/bPWJ19s numerical inferiority is a key to victory
http://imgur.com/JRRnxby
http://imgur.com/63ZiTgr
http://imgur.com/63ZiTgr

P.S. Colonisation (unless you want all of N. America) is rubbish in case of Muscovy; Religious and humanist are much less needed than before AOW (thanks, vassal advanced feeding) and heathen lands are not so rich as they were. Never take quantity as Muscovy. I somewhat regret no influence as influence is king in AOW. Also introduction of linear curve into calculating casualties from dice rolls makes offensive a somewhat less obvious choice.
 
Last edited:

ahyangyi

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It means that you'll be saving only 30 point per tech (60 in general, 120 if you don't run Western Arms Trade all game, which is easy in case of Muscovy).

Well, technically you change from 120% to 100% tech cost, which translates to 120 points per tech level. Taking the Western Arms Trade modifier into account and you still have 60 points per level.
 

nicechinos

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Well, technically you change from 120% to 100% tech cost, which translates to 120 points per tech level. Taking the Western Arms Trade modifier into account and you still have 60 points per level.
Why should we care about technical and not practical side?
Which makes it into 30 if you take innovative. Faster idea progress will also allow earlier unlocking of last Russian idea which is another 10% tech cost reduction? BTW westernization makes advisers much more expensive which bring in MPs as well.
 

Lazuline

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I just wanted to thank everyone for the great advice! I decided against Westernizing as Russia despite the button lighting up from time to time due to my poor Diplo Tech.

In my current game (mid-1600s already), I've begun regaining Russian land. The 1500s were marked with a century of shame as the Polish-Lithuanian Union + Moldavian, Trans, and Wallachian Armies marked defeat after defeat for my Russian armies. We were simply outnumbered and outgunned. When the Commonwealth finally formed, it gained a new March in Hungary. It didn't help that it also was a close ally of France. At its peak, it was fielding close to 105,000 Standing Soldiers (Commonwealth) + some 30,000 or so odd armies from its Marches. Things looking bleak and two failed & humiliating wars later, I decided to just give up on all my Western Claims and just expand eastwards. After all, even the Ottomans and Austrians were soundly defeated. :(

Then it happened! The Golden Era of the Commonwealth prompted it to Westernize. I observed the process unfold. Within a decade, the westernization completed and instead of a monster, a paper tiger came out! Legitimacy was way below 50, tech across the board were behind 3-4 levels each, and its stability was near gone. Needless to say, the dismantling of the once proud Commonwealth began and should be finished before the end of the 1600s. I can only imagine in horror what would've happened to me if I clicked that Westernize Button. It's clearly a trap! :)