Russian Ideas

[Lazuline]

Hello everyone. I'd like to ask for advice on what ideas you would recommend for a Muscovy -> Russia game. The last time I played the game was back when it launched and only recently started playing again after I bought all the new content.

So much has changed! I took Diplomacy (without thinking too much since it used to be the prime choice back at launch) and soon realized I was running out of DIP points rapidly. It used to be so abundant! That being learned, I tried out another game but still feel like there's just too much new information to take. Given this, I'd like to ask for your views and advice on what ideas I should take in a Russian game?

Related to this, is westernizing still a feasible move as Russia? I read elsewhere saying it's pointless now?

 

[HwT]

Choose the idea groups you expect to have most points available. If you happen to have a king who is for example 2/1/4 and heir 1/3/3 then military idea group would be the first choice. Also, always try to estimate based on your game plans, how much you will be using admin points to core and raising stability and dip points to annex vassals etc. Usually Muscovy/Russia should first choose either dip ideas that give a colonist, like expansion or exploration or a military idea, preferably defensive (since it suits Russian playstyle and makes up for their weaknesses). For the first admin idea group, humanist or religious.

Westernizing is not really something you need to do. It no longer gives access to western troops so there isn't much to gain other than lowering tech cost, which just isn't really worth it.

BTW. between 1550-1650 if your stability is lower than 0, Muscovy/Russia has a chance trigger very unfortunate event chain called Time of Troubles. You would do well to avoid that event chain

 

[Castrolol]

Muscovy is so powerful and in such a great geopolitical location you can dominate no matter what ideas you've picked. Westernising is not worth it (since you don't get new units) and Russia can easily get on par (or even outperform) western tech discounts easily.

However admin, religious, offensive and expansion are the four major ideas to pick up. After that you can pick up anything you want depending on your goals or current situation.

 

[Lazuline]

Oh! Westernizing doesn't give you advanced troops anymore? That's a bit disappointing. I wonder what the rationale for the change was.

That being said, it seems like Humanism (Admin), Exploration (Dip), and Offensive (Mil) are the three prime choices for a Russia Game?

 

[myrsl0ken]

Explortion is a waste imo. You dont need the conquistadors since you have national ideas that explores for you. I would take influence for decreased diploanexation cost and extra diplo slot. Remember that everyone can vassalize hordes and eastern tech can vassalize chinese!

 

[oblio-]

Oh! Westernizing doesn't give you advanced troops anymore? That's a bit disappointing. I wonder what the rationale for the change was.

That being said, it seems like Humanism (Admin), Exploration (Dip), and Offensive (Mil) are the three prime choices for a Russia Game?

Expansion, Offensive, Religious should do the trick for the start of the game.

 

[HwT]

I don't agree with that at all. Influence is absolutely useless, especially for a Russian game. You get +1 diplo slot (which isn't really even that important to have) only when idea group is full, decreased diploannex cost is nothing to aim for since you have to invest 1200 dip points to get it.
Also, Russia gets Siberian Frontier national idea (Auto-exploration) when you have 15 ideas. By that time you should have already colonized most of Siberia.
Choosing 1st. Defensive or Expansion/exploration, 3rd. Humanism imho the best course of action. You can choose offensive instead of defensive if it really suits your fighting style better, but I think defensive is in this case better since it is Russia we are talking about. In general, offensive is though to be the strongest military idea group, but Russia can really benefit more from defensive.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't agree with that at all. Influence is absolutely useless, especially for a Russian game. You get +1 diplo slot (which isn't really even that important to have) only when idea group is full, decreased diploannex cost is nothing to aim for since you have to invest 1200 dip points to get it.

Influence is a solid pick. You have all kinds of vassals to feed, ranging from Finland to Ukraine to hordes and then the 3 Ming vassals. I'm not sure about taking it first, but maybe.

Expansion is far better than exploration for Russia. It's not even close. Not only does the CB let you take provinces for 0 DIP, it has a -50% cost (IE double per war) and -50% AE on it and is a superiority war against nations where superiority is trivial. It even tosses some money via a merchant and trade power your way. Russia has no better overall group choice.

Offensive is hands-down the strongest group for direct combat, because it improves leader fire and shock. Defensive and quantity are worthy picks too, as they reduce attrition damage and have cost savings in addition to the military benefits. Defensive might be a little better just due to the morale + reinforce speed + cheap infantry from Russian NI= very early and inexpensive access to 50k stacks that you just use to assault-occupy provinces on overmatched opposition.

I'm not sure about Humanism. It's true that if you go PA and vassal feed you should be able to get everything converted without religious, at least until areas like Constantinople which are much later, but religious is a top-tier pick for attacking into Europe, because of cleansing heresy CB removing your DIP province cost and being able to lock war leader. It also makes taking land from Ottomans more palatable.

 

[Rooz]

Expansion, administrative and religious are almost a necessity for Russia. And I really suggest you to pick Adm first, cuz mission claims on novgorod + adm coring cost reduction will save you a lot of points.

Also, Russia really profits from Quantity (even more troops and a colonist).
But if you wanna fight europeans, you should also have offensive, defensive and probably quality or innovative or both

That's 8 ideas. You could change one of the latter ideas for humanist or influence, but that probably covers it. Anything else would be a waste, IMO

 

[LastSalian]

Exploration if you plan to westernize. Religious if you will stay eastern.

And yes, westernization is completely broken. Pointless and counterproductive for Russia even if you want to role play and move your capital to Saint Petersburg. See my post "[SUGGESTION] Westernization and army tradition" to understand why.

 

[Qoff]

Expansion
Offensive
Religious
Defensive
Quality
Trade

 

[Lazuline]

Wow! Thank you very much for all of these wonderful feedback & advice. I've just started a new game and will try out these ideas now. Will post back here later on to share the results. Cheers!

 

[Dron22]

Expansion so you can immediately begin to colonize Siberia, also when you get all Expansion ideas as a bonus you get a nice CB for hordes which enables you to conquer Asia very fast. Religious is very helpful because you will need to convert many provinces, best to get it as 2nd or 3rd, as Expansion is probably best taken first. For military Offensive and Denfensive, I get both. Trade is another good one to get because you will probably control a lot of trade nodes and might want to maximize the profits from them. Everything else is optional, like Exploration will let you colonize Alaska and California before anyone else if you get it as 3rd or 4th, otherwise it will be too late as others will get there. I don't know why a few people say get administration, in my opinion it has very limited use for Russia, I just don't see how it pays off. Quantity seems to be ineffective too, as Russia should not have any issues with manpower.

 

[Lazuline]

Hi everyone. I decided to just reuse this thread instead of making a new one. Anyway, I've started a new Ironman game with Art of War and noticed Muscovy seems remarkably easier now compared to before. In fact, I have annexed Novgorod and entered a period of peace in the kingdom. It's already the late 1470s and I'm at a crossroads. Should I bother to westernize while Ivan is still on the throne? I heard it's much easier now in Art of War but also heard horror stories (OE losing Bulgaria + Greece). What do you guys think? In this game, I took Religious as my first idea.

 

[oblio-]

Westernizing as Russia is not mandatory. If you can do it easily (plenty of points available, stable and small country), do it.
What the AI does doesn't matter (Ottoman example).

 

[MiniaAr]

Influence is a solid pick. You have all kinds of vassals to feed, ranging from Finland to Ukraine to hordes and then the 3 Ming vassals. I'm not sure about taking it first, but maybe.

Expansion is far better than exploration for Russia. It's not even close. Not only does the CB let you take provinces for 0 DIP, it has a -50% cost (IE double per war) and -50% AE on it and is a superiority war against nations where superiority is trivial. It even tosses some money via a merchant and trade power your way. Russia has no better overall group choice.

Offensive is hands-down the strongest group for direct combat, because it improves leader fire and shock. Defensive and quantity are worthy picks too, as they reduce attrition damage and have cost savings in addition to the military benefits. Defensive might be a little better just due to the morale + reinforce speed + cheap infantry from Russian NI= very early and inexpensive access to 50k stacks that you just use to assault-occupy provinces on overmatched opposition.

I'm not sure about Humanism. It's true that if you go PA and vassal feed you should be able to get everything converted without religious, at least until areas like Constantinople which are much later, but religious is a top-tier pick for attacking into Europe, because of cleansing heresy CB removing your DIP province cost and being able to lock war leader. It also makes taking land from Ottomans more palatable.

What about ideas in a MP game as Muscowy? Standard neighbours are Sweden, Lithuania, Golden Horde (and further Qara Qoyonlu, Ottomans, Poland, Hansa).

 

[SacredDatura]

I don't know if this has changed since I played Russia a few months back, but ironically, as Russia you don't really need to westernize. There are a few Russia-specific events that give you -tech cost, and you should become so big that your permanent +3 advisors should help you keep on tech parity even with the 110% eastern tech. Since westernization doesn't give better units now westernizing as Russia is of dubious value.

 

[oblio-]

What about ideas in a MP game as Muscowy? Standard neighbours are Sweden, Lithuania, Golden Horde (and further Qara Qoyonlu, Ottomans, Poland, Hansa).

I haven't played MP but from what I've heard you need a lot of military ideas. In 1.8, for Russia Defensive seems tailored. Then Offensive probably.

Of course, an expert would probably have tons of other suggestions

 

[ahyangyi]

Hi everyone. I decided to just reuse this thread instead of making a new one. Anyway, I've started a new Ironman game with Art of War and noticed Muscovy seems remarkably easier now compared to before. In fact, I have annexed Novgorod and entered a period of peace in the kingdom. It's already the late 1470s and I'm at a crossroads. Should I bother to westernize while Ivan is still on the throne? I heard it's much easier now in Art of War but also heard horror stories (OE losing Bulgaria + Greece). What do you guys think? In this game, I took Religious as my first idea.

I'd say there's no benefit in westernizing as Russia... (you lose 800 MP per category, then save about 60 MP per category per level) But if you do want to westernize, do it early

 

[DicRoNero]

I'd say there's no benefit in westernizing as Russia... (you lose 800 MP per category, then save about 60 MP per category per level)

It's more complex than that. Besides, you gain more by catching up and thus recovering some of these 800(2400) MPs you invested.