Russia

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Originally posted by HolisticGod
Czaralex,

A culture is not made more impressive by its feats at arms. It is, though, often made less... Whether the cossacks were the mightiest race of conquerers in history and killed a thousand Frenchmen for every one of theirs or the mighty machine of the Czar was the vehicle of Ares himself is meaningless to me. This isn't about the size of your favorite army's privates.

Moreover, I've never even suggested that the Russians aren't capable warriors-to the contrary: Peter, Ivan III, Ivan IV and Stalin were tremendous military leaders. But Paul wasn't-and he didn't steamroll anyone or anything.

"The Russian winter was made up by the West's propaganda,"

I'm hardly a devotee of western propoganda. But history is history-Napoleon lost to the winter, Hitler lost to the winter, Charles XII lost to the winter. The very same way the Germans lost to Britain's island fortress and the crusaders to Saladin's superb desert logistics. Tribes and cities and nations make use of their geography, their resources, their natural advantages, and from time to time those advantages become the overwhelming factor in matters of defeat or victory.

I would even say that had Napoleon managed to resupply and defeat Paul's army again (and he would have, which is why the Russians fled), he wouldn't have been able to hold out against an eastern uprising for long. But, then, that wouldn't aid in an invasion of China either.

I think it was Aleksandr I who was in charge of Russia during the Napoleon wars. Neither Paul nor Alex were any good when it comes to the art of war, agreed.
On the other hand, Kutuzon was a great general. I don't think his greatness can be argued, because he was the favorite officer of Sovorov, and IMHO that says a tremendous lot about a person. And I believe that it was he, not the winter, which defeated Napoleon. My reasons for thinking this way is that Napoleon was to great a general to be defeated by Winter. I am obviously not an expert on the Napoleonic wars, but I do know quite a bit about WWII. And if it was winter that beat Hitler, why was Hitler able to bring the biggest defeat of the entire war on the American Army during the winter? The Battle of the Bulge! Another point, most people believe that the Germans beat up on the Russian armies in 41 untill the snows came, and then the Red Army easily defeated the Germans, because the poor guys just froze to death. If this was true, life would be really peachy, especially for the million that died during the German offesives of 1942. The Germans got a setback during the winter, not as much because of the snow, but because of the fresh Siberian divisions moved up for Moscow's defense. Then the Germans went on another offensive, and they didn't make as big gains as they did the first year, but they still advanced. The same thing happened during the winter of 42-43 that happened in the winter of 41-42, the Germans stopped their offensives. They were planing to start offensives in the spring just like they did before, but Zhukov and Chuikov, not GRANDPA COLD, surrounded the 6th Army. My point is this, while using the natural advantages is always a good millitary strategy, saying something "But history is history-Napoleon lost to the winter, Hitler lost to the winter, Charles XII lost to the winter." is IMHO a bit away from the truth.(Uglyduck, I am trying to improve! )
The same can be said of the British island fortress, if it wasn't for a great man such as W.Churchill and the will off the British People, no body of water, even the Pacific could have kept the Germans away.

PS: Thank God, we are not talking about "your favorite army's privates", because the Russian, British, German, every other historical superpower has a really tough challenge in "rising" to the level African-American set. I don't think they make enough Viagra, for the Entire Red Army to catch up.

 

[Plaps]

At the Battle of the Bulge/Operation Herbstnebel the Germans were fighting in native territory in a native winter. Also the low countries' winter is a lot less severe than the winters in Russia. Also, the Americans weren't defeated, the Germans ran out of fuel and lost their great gamble.

"Soldiers of the Western Front! Your great hour has come. Large attacking armies have started against the Anglo-Americans. I do not have to tell you more than that. You feel it yourself. We Gamble everything! Your carry with you the holy obligation to give all to achieve superhuman objectives for our Fatherland and our Führer!"

--Field Marshall von Rundstedt, December 15 address"

I doubt the Germans had many supermen left at the time, weather again played a big role in this miscalculation expecting the weather to stay cloudly they instead had skies clear up faster than usual and massive Aerial bombardment ensued.


The Germans had to win the war quickly in the east and that is why the winter, not the Soviet military ensured their loss, it stopped their narrow tracked tanks at the gates of Moscow. Of course both variables, Weather and the Soviet Military had a major part in it, but for long term analysis at the end of 41, it was obvious that the Winter had stopped the Germans, not the Soviet Army... Had Barbarossa been started as planned in the Spring and not in June Moscow probably would have fell and with it a lot of fleeing Russians (as if they didn't capture enough...). But miscalculations led to a delayed invasion, Italy miscalculating Greek and Yugoslavian resistance for example. Weather is a major variable in any Campaign and decimated nearly all of Napoleon's Army, turned Panzer Division soldiers into Wehrmacht Rifle units at the gates of Moscow and ultimatly gave the Russians in 1812 and 1941 what they needed most: Time.

 

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Originally posted by Plaps
At the Battle of the Bulge/Operation Herbstnebel the Germans were fighting in native territory in a native winter. Also the low countries' winter is a lot less severe than the winters in Russia. Also, the Americans weren't defeated, the Germans ran out of fuel and lost their great gamble.

"Soldiers of the Western Front! Your great hour has come. Large attacking armies have started against the Anglo-Americans. I do not have to tell you more than that. You feel it yourself. We Gamble everything! Your carry with you the holy obligation to give all to achieve superhuman objectives for our Fatherland and our Führer!"

--Field Marshall von Rundstedt, December 15 address"

I doubt the Germans had many supermen left at the time, weather again played a big role in this miscalculation expecting the weather to stay cloudly they instead had skies clear up faster than usual and massive Aerial bombardment ensued.


The Germans had to win the war quickly in the east and that is why the winter, not the Soviet military ensured their loss, it stopped their narrow tracked tanks at the gates of Moscow. Of course both variables, Weather and the Soviet Military had a major part in it, but for long term analysis at the end of 41, it was obvious that the Winter had stopped the Germans, not the Soviet Army... Had Barbarossa been started as planned in the Spring and not in June Moscow probably would have fell and with it a lot of fleeing Russians (as if they didn't capture enough...). But miscalculations led to a delayed invasion, Italy miscalculating Greek and Yugoslavian resistance for example. Weather is a major variable in any Campaign and decimated nearly all of Napoleon's Army, turned Panzer Division soldiers into Wehrmacht Rifle units at the gates of Moscow and ultimatly gave the Russians in 1812 and 1941 what they needed most: Time.

My wording that the Americans lost at the Bulge was false, it would be much more truthful to say Battle of the Bulge was the biggest setback of the US in the European Front.
Back to this winter. Your point about if the Germans started in Spring they would have been able to take Moscow is very probably true. And? Nappy took Moscow, where did that get him? Elba! There was about 6000 more miles that the Red Army could retreat to?
But I stick to my point that the winter had very little to do with the German defeat of October-november 41. What happened was the exact same thing what happened in June 41 to the Soviets. The Wehremacht was placed in attacking positions, with the Panzers infront ready to follow up the Stukas and artillary bombardment. Instead (I can't recall the exact number of divisions, but I think it was something like 11 divisions that arrived from Siberia) counter attacked.

"it stopped their narrow tracked tanks at the gates of Moscow"
Why is it then that not a single German tank was dug out by the Russians and used, I am sure every Soviet tank crew would rather go into battle in a PKfIV than a T-26. I think because the Germans got in their tanks and retreated. Here is a mystery, how did these tanks that were stuck in the mud and then frozen, so easily and fastly moved away from the front. Winter was an excuse that the Germans used for their defeat. I know I wouldn't want to be Klug coming up to Hitler and saying, " I was about to take the Kremlin, but then the subhuman slavs kind of kicked our superior arian asses"
The same excuse was used by Tuchachevsky and company in Finland, they said that the only reason that the Soviet Army didn't wipe the floor with the Finns was because of the cold, not because the tactic of just sending infantry in mass swarms hasn't worked in the past 550 years.

 

[Plaps]

Well operation Typhoon to take moscow was launched in October, but mud, and to a lesser extent snow caused the Germans to abandoned their tanks. The Russian counter attack launched on December 5th or 6th, I can't remember if it was one or 2 days before Pearl Harbor, anyway, the counterattack gained a lot of ground, but Hitlers order not to cede any ground was obeyed, to the best of the Germans ability. The Soviets thew away many lives for very little ground, seeing the Germans as weak and over extended they tried a counter-attack and the Germans for the most part repelled and prevented the Russians from reaching their Strategic goals.

That is why Russians didn't trade their T-26 cracker boxes for german made panzers, although the panzers couldn't move they still made nice gun emplacments . They did push them away from Moscow but the majority of panzers weren't abandoned they were just unmovable .

I did not mean to imply that a German flag in Moscow would mean victory, quite to the contray, the Germans were doomed no matter what, the Urals are still some distance off.

Back on topic now . Wars seem to be won, lost, and most importantly their outcomes delayed by bad intelligence and miscalculations. The whole history of the world has been affected by these miscalculations, Italys invasion of the Balkans and subsequent delayed invasion of the Soviet Union made the Soviet victory over the Germans a lot easier and quicker then it could have been, had the invasion of launched in April... who knows maybe Berlin would have been taken by Patton or Monty instead.

World War one itself was caused by secert alliances, another aspect I think should be included, the idea of miscalculating your enemies alliances, enemies, treaties, and agreements will make you more likely to do something that you might otherwise hesitate from doing. Would I as Germany attack Belgium knowing that it will cause England to declare war on me? Probably not, but if I miscalculate the Belgian strength for one, and their allies for another I'm more likely to make the blunder.

 

[Zagys]

Originally posted by Plaps
I did not mean to imply that a German flag in Moscow would mean victory, quite to the contray, the Germans were doomed no matter what, the Urals are still some distance off.

Back on topic now . Wars seem to be won, lost, and most importantly their outcomes delayed by bad intelligence and miscalculations. The whole history of the world has been affected by these miscalculations, Italys invasion of the Balkans and subsequent delayed invasion of the Soviet Union made the Soviet victory over the Germans a lot easier and quicker then it could have been, had the invasion of launched in April... who knows maybe Berlin would have been taken by Patton or Monty instead.

I disagree, the war in Russia was by no means a foregone conclusion.

Originally posted by Plaps
World War one itself was caused by secert alliances, another aspect I think should be included, the idea of miscalculating your enemies alliances, enemies, treaties, and agreements will make you more likely to do something that you might otherwise hesitate from doing. Would I as Germany attack Belgium knowing that it will cause England to declare war on me? Probably not, but if I miscalculate the Belgian strength for one, and their allies for another I'm more likely to make the blunder.

Bad example. Germany knew very well that Belgium's independence was guaranteed by Britain, they just didn't care.

 

[saskganesh]

hell of a hijack. way OT or i am your mother.

 

[Plaps]

Well, the Russian counter offensive began days before the United States entered the War, I believe the fate of the war was pretty obvious at that moment. It is a pure numerical impossiblity for a German victory after that point, they may have avoided losing, win? I doubt it.

And yes I know that Germany and England had guaranteed Belgain neutrality, I said that the Germans were not positive that the British would go to war, the schieflen plan itself called for them to enter Belgium ONLY after Belgian neutrality had been violated not to be the violatee, or if that was unavoidable for the German statesmen to work something out. The plan originally called for deploying their forces along the Dutch-Belgian border, French troops would almost have to deploy along the Meuse river and the Germans would then proceed, with the French having violating the neutrality, regardless of what plan went into effect, the miscalculations of plans, treaties, and motives were all ingredients to the powder keg.

I don't think this is remotly off topic everything said has been related to miscalculating the power of nations and shows how important it was to the history of the time period as well as the history of time periods not within the game.