Russia WC help?

[Moscovian]

Alright I had to quit another WC attempt as my strategy failed, so here I am asking you for advice.

My situation is the following: I'd like to damage some of the colonizers as soon as possible, but it's difficult to do it as Russia.

My strategy so far is attacking the Kalmar Union as soon as I have military advantage (military tech 5 and two defensive ideas for 15% morale and advisor bonus) and take a chunk of Sweden and Norway, then in the second war take another huge bit of Norway including the little islands on the coast of Britain to fabricate claims on Scotland. From there, conquer England.

Problem 1: by this time, England and Portugal are almost never allied anymore, which means I can't take any land in Iberia. How do I get any land in Spain/Portugal for a later CB?

Problem 2: if England has already annexed all of Scotland, invading England will be impossible because of navy superiority. What do I do in this case?

Problem 3: if vassalized, Scotland never takes exploration ideas (correct?), so does it make sense to conquer England until Scotland takes exploration, and then vassalize?

 

[Vulkandrache]

I'd like to damage some of the colonizers as soon as possible,

Please explain why.

How do I get any land in Spain/Portugal for a later CB?

No-Cb Granada?

so does it make sense to conquer England until Scotland takes exploration, and then vassalize?

(Correct, yes.)

You can do that. But insteand of going the whole way through Scandinavia why not just No-Cb Ireland?

Alright I had to quit another WC attempt as my strategy failed, so here I am asking you for advice.

What exactly failed?

You seem to be hopping through alot of holes to get your "strategy" to work.
How about just building up a Powerbase like everyone else?
I mean, im one of the people doing somewhat unusual stuff, but i also have 3k hours on the timer.
The way you are going seems strange. You are throwing alot of ressources into something with no immediat and very little over-time benefit.

two defensive ideas for 15% morale

I cant remember the last time i went Defensive first and i cant remember the last time i took it at all.

 

[lightvsdarkness]

I did WC once as Russia after many attempts, quiet some time ago. You have to be smart - I allied (supported independence) Sweden and Poland and used them. Didn't betrayed them until very late into game.
Conquered most of the Norway, but vassalized them only after they got colony in New World.

Yes, you must get Scotland before England, and maybe ally with France.
Because AE if you are Russia builds up super fast - go in all directions. Go around HRE.

Basically get Influence, Diplo ideas, but don't get vassals, go for allies.

P.S. With new tech rework tried to go south - to get to the tech source... Ottomans are bigger problem than ever, you have to act in the right moment, I think...
P.P.S. Being lucky helps very much. Try to sell soul to the Devil maybe...

 

[Moscovian]

Thanks for your answer

Iberia: I'd like to get a foothold in Iberia to conquer Portugal in 2 wars and annex its colonies. Better early than later when they have spread their stupid level 6 forts all over the world. Would like to do the same with England but by the time I get to London they have already colonized South Africa, which is way out of my coring range.

Granada and Ireland: generally speaking I avoid no-CB wars because of the negative stability and the extra AE, but I guess it could be worth for a single Irish province if there's no alternative. Thanks this was helpful.

About Scandinavia you are probably right, it's a huge manpower sink and a very long war for provinces that are worth nothing. The only advantage might be taking Iceland but only with exploration ideas, which are almost useless in a WC anyway.

 

[Moscovian]

I did WC once as Russia after many attempts, quiet some time ago. You have to be smart - I allied (supported independence) Sweden and Poland and used them. Didn't betrayed them until very late into game.
Conquered most of the Norway, but vassalized them only after they got colony in New World.

Yes, you must get Scotland before England, and maybe ally with France.
Because AE if you are Russia builds up super fast - go in all directions. Go around HRE.

Basically get Influence, Diplo ideas, but don't get vassals, go for allies.

P.S. With new tech rework tried to go south - to get to the tech source... Ottomans are bigger problem than ever, you have to act in the right moment, I think...

I usually strike the Ottomans as soon as I form Russia (I take administrative as third idea level 10, which means I fight a long war while waiting for the 800 admin points for the core reduction idea). It weakens them a lot and makes all future wars way easier.

 

[YuriiH]

My situation is the following: I'd like to damage some of the colonizers as soon as possible, but it's difficult to do it as Russia.

NoCB

 

[lightvsdarkness]

Granada and Ireland: generally speaking I avoid no-CB wars because of the negative stability and the extra AE, but I guess it could be worth for a single Irish province if there's no alternative. Thanks this was helpful.

About Scandinavia you are probably right, it's a huge manpower sink and a very long war for provinces that are worth nothing. The only advantage might be taking Iceland but only with exploration ideas, which are almost useless in a WC anyway.

You can start "No CB" war if you get that alleviate stability hit idea. But as Russia you kinda had to go religious first, Influence/Diplo is very important, Admin is the third one probably...

I go into Scandinavia - I get Norway and sometimes try to get Denmark early - if I'm unlucky =)
Exploration as Russia generally sucks, yes - very hard to compete with other countries...

 

[YuriiH]

But as Russia you kinda had to go religious first

Certainly not!
For WC, Administration_2 helps to save TONNNNNNNS of admin points right from the start.

Exploration as Russia generally sucks, yes - very hard to compete with other countries...

As Muscowy, Exploration is needed mainly for Malaccan tradenode, immediately after carving a tentacle through India.

 

[lightvsdarkness]

Certainly not!
For WC, Administration_2 helps to save TONNNNNNNS of admin points right from the start.

It's debatable, but I got WC when went Religious first, and Admin third. Too many Muslim (Catholic) provinces...
Especially now, when Tech source in the South-West.

 

[Moscovian]

As mentioned before I go defensive first, then religious, administrative, quantity, but I may try admin first (defensive is only really needed when fighting Sweden and similar)

 

[YuriiH]

It's debatable, but when I got WC when went Religious first, and Admin third

That's 75 years where you need to pay increased coring cost!
In WC game as a Major country, you need to wage at least three 5-year wars every 15 years in the early game eras.
In other words, you will wage at least 75/15 * 3 = 15 wars before you get Admin_2 as the third Idea group.
In each of those wars you conquer at least 40 dev per war. This is a very safe play, and you will be able to avoid ANY coalition.

40 dev * 15 = 600 development for 75 years, or 8 development per year.
If we assume that you give a third of your lands to your vassals, you get 400 development for 75 years, or 4000 admin minimum.
With Admin_2, you will save 4000*0.25=1000 admin.
And that is IF you play VERY safely.
In a proper WC, you conquer 10-15 dev per year on average, and the admin saving becomes much greater.

And by the way, Catholics are easily converted + you don't need to conquer high-developed Muslim lands right from the start, so you don't have major religious issues right from the start.

defensive is only really needed when fighting Sweden and similar

Why? You don't need any early military idea as Muscowy.

 

[Moscovian]

Oh by the way I didn't mention my opening strategy, here it is:

-warn Golden Horde and Ryazan (I want a free Ryazan and Odoyev as a barrier between Lithuania and Muscovy)
-attack Novgorod and seal it away from other neighbors
-cancel mission, attack Kazan (forge claim during war on Novgorod), you'll get the subjugate Kazan mission during the war; wait until Timurids get tired and again seal Kazan out of its neighbors
-fight back Kazani revolts after coring and recover while getting to tech 5 (+2 military advisor from cossacks estates and abdicate ruler in January 1454)
-annex two smallest vassals and ally one or two major enemies of Poland (Hungary, Bohemia, Teutonic order), promise them land and give nothing
-core, recover and attack Novgorod again
-Golden Horde, Kazan 2, Poland/Lithuania 2, Crimea or Kalmar Union

As you can see it's very aggressive but I guess taking admin first means don't touch the hordes and focus on Poland/Lithuania

 

[Moscovian]

Why? You don't need any early military idea as Muscowy.

Actually I find myself swimming in monarch points: military if I don't take defensive and admin if I don't take religious/admin

After all by abdicating on January 1454 Muscovy gets a 3-4-5 ruler and a +2 military advisor

 

[YuriiH]

Actually I find myself swimming in monarch points:

If you swim in admin: conquer more.
If you swim in diplomatic: develop for Renaissance, then conquer more unjustified provinces, OR integrate vassals.
If you swim in military: develop for Renaissance, then take ahead-of-time mil-tactics technology, OR develop your lands for manpower.

As you can see it's very aggressive but I guess taking admin first means don't touch the hordes and focus on Poland/Lithuania

As advised above, after Novgorod sealing, attack/vassalize Granada or Irish minors. This way, you'll have much place to put your efforts. I also like No-CB/vassalize BYZ, to destroy Ottomans before they become a problem. And by the way, hordes' Muslim 1/1/1 lands give more trouble than profit.

 

[Vulkandrache]

annex two smallest vassals and ally one or two major enemies of Poland

I played one third of a game with the new Muscovy.

My opening move was to cancel two of my Vassals and feed them to the other three.
You are stuck with 2 Diplomats until you form Russia, there is no way i can be arsed to deal with 5 -3 DipRep penalties.

 

[Moscovian]

I played one third of a game with the new Muscovy.

My opening move was to cancel two of my Vassals and feed them to the other three.
You are stuck with 2 Diplomats until you form Russia, there is no way i can be arsed to deal with 5 -3 DipRep penalties.

But why? Extra AE and smaller vassal swarms when it takes a year and half for most, save Perm. Nobody but Poland's enemies will want to ally you anyway.

In the first 30 years the only useful ally you can have is maybe the Teutonic order and its forts that take forever to get sieged down, or Bohemia if you want to try spreading your dynasty abroad (but completely useless in fighting Poland). Austria and Hungary usually don't care about your friendship until you're bordering the Ottomans, but by the time you get there, all your vassals will be gone anyway.

 

[Vulkandrache]

But why? Extra AE and smaller vassal swarms when it takes a year and half for most, save Perm

Yes, the Integration takes mere month.
But you need to improve relations to 190, which takes ages. And then you are stuck with -3 DipRep for 10 years each time.
And annexing two Vassals at once means you cant do anything because no Diplomats ready.

 

[Robert de Bruce]

I just did Muscoy->Russia->SPQR WC run in this patch. What lightvsdarkness says, seems outdated to me, he says himself, he did this long time ago.

I did not touch Europe most of the game. Most of the colonizers I took out in the 18th century, gaining their colonial nations for free. This is not optimal for a One Faith, but as long as you go for normal WC only, it is way easier this way. Taking out colonizers early was needed in 1.7 or something, not 1.23
I concentrated on forming Russia early and pushing into Asia, later in the Arabian Peninsula and then Africa, which I took out nearly completely in the second half of 17th century. In the west I had a sweden->Scandinavia ally first, which later allied ottomans and remained untouched for a long time, a Teutonic order ally, who took most of poland, pommerania and Bohemia and also some parts of Hungary and Lithuania. I took most of Norway, including Iceland, some parts of Denmark, from there diploannexing my way into HRE a bit, Livonian Order, most of Lithuania, Moldawia and all the Hordes.
Although I had some wars vs the Ottos I left them alone most time, finishing them off also in 18th century. I ate all of Asia but Mings tributaries, which I made spent some provinces by threatening war the whole time, wrecked them also in 18th century.
Your goal should be Persia and India early on. What I could have done better is the trade channeling. Since many of the Persian and Indian CoTs can't be channeled to Russia, taking out Ottos at least at Bosporus might have been a higher priority for me, in the end it worked out anyway.
I failed at HRE game, since League war never triggered, but I also did not need it. If you want some other achievements like Redecorating alongside, you should take Rome latest in early 18th century, because you need to culture convert it and this takes some time and you can only start it without nationalism, which might be renewed by succesful revolts.
For early game, your main goal for Europe should be to avoid great power blocks, so break Kalmar Union, for example support Sweden independance and break PLC before it forms. I was lucky that Poland did not get the PU, although this seems to be quite likely under this patch.
For idea groups, I went Influence, Aristocratic, Admin, quantity, religious, resulting in a big manpower overkill, which allowed me to play the game with nearly 0 mercs, having 2 million MP early on and being able to ignore nearly all losses simply. In late game I was moving around big siege stacks with 60-80 cannons with siege 6 generals, making the lvl 8 forts going down in days. So it's no problem, to conquer Europe, Ottos and Ming in late game.

Edit: And ofcourse go vassal feeding, I fed my vassals most of Novgorod, too.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

Your goal should be Persia and India early on. What I could have done better is the trade channeling. Since many of the Persian and Indian CoTs can't be channeled to Russia, taking out Ottos at least at Bosporus might have been a higher priority for me, in the end it worked out anyway.

All but Hormuz and Persia nodes can be funneled into Indus and from there Kashmir->Samarkhand->Astrakhan->Kazan->Novgorod

 

[Robert de Bruce]

I know, but Hormuz and Persia is quite alot, + all the Afrian nodes.