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unmerged(41809)

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There are two matters I would like to discuss about Russia in EU. I will start with the longest and most important.


1) Sole Defender of the Orthodox Faith.

I think it would be very interesting if the title of "Sole Defender of the Orthodox Faith" were reviewed for EU3.

It isn't of great use for Russia to claim this title in EU2 because most of the Orthodox world is occupied by Russia herself.
Unlike what happens in the Catholic and Protestant blocks and in the Muslim world, where there is always a mosaique of relatively active medium countries that get tangled up in conflicts that give the Sole Defender of their faith juicy opportunities for war, in the case of Eastern Europe by the time Russia can be turned into a respectable sized power strong enough to support the weight of this title there are practically no other independent Orthodox nations left, as most of them have been diplo-annexed by Russia to grow into a Great Slavic Orthodox Power or gobbled up by the Ottomans and Austria/Hungary.

The Orthodox Faith has always been the soul of Russia and one of the main pillars of Russia's imperial drive, just exactly as it was with Catholicism in imperial Spain, so it isn't realistic for Russia to loose all religious drive - all practical utility from holding the title of Sole Defender of the Faith - just because there aren't any independent Orthodox nations left; (indeed, it should rather be the contrary!)

One possible way to compensate this could be to give Russia extra cassus belli against the muslim nations it has always fought, especially the Ottoman Empire.

Since the days when the small Russian principates finally started shaking the mongol occupation off, the Russians have always fought the muslims expanding their frontier further and further at their expense in Central Asia.

But it is not simply a strategic matter: it has a strong religious confrontation component. In the XV century Ivan III married the niece of the last Byzantium emperor Sofia Paleolog. Sofia arrived to Moscow accompanied by Greek court, which soon became the closest surrounding of the Great duke and Moscow started being reffered to as "the third Rome". The doctrine of "the third Rome " connected the idea of an empire and the idea of the orthodox sacral mission together.

The punishment of the Turks in particular for having squashed the old center of Orthodox Christianity in Constantinople and the struggle against "the Muslim enemy" in general (like in Central Asia) became the messianic idea on the basis of which the Russian empire began to be built. Marriage of the Great duke with the Byzantine princess gave the necessary political legitimacy to this messianic idea.

The whole history of imperial Russia is a long list of Russian/Turkish wars, and the anti-Turkish impulse was part of the wider anti-Islamic drive, which defined the main vector of Russian expansion, to the south and southeast.

It isn't a coincidence that the onion-shaped domes of Russian Orthodox churches are very often topped by an orthodox cross set symbolically over the muslim half-moon.

The title of Sole Defender of the Faith reflects the Muslim-Catholic historical struggle in the game, and the religion wars in Europe due to the Protestant Reform because the Muslim, Catholic and eventually Protestant cultural blocks are big enough communities for the title to work well according to how its conditions are set in the game; but for the Orthodox world it is completely different for the reasons I have stated.

In EU2 Spain gets its imperial-religious connection done in a satisfactory way. But in the case of Russia they seem to have missed it a bit because of how the conditions leagued to the title of Sole Defender of the Faith are set, and in my opinion there should be some sort of compensation to make this title work as well for the case of Russia as it works for the case of Spain, as the religious factor was definitely as important for Russian Tsars (some of which have become saints of the Russian Orthodox Church) as it was for Spanish Kings and Emperors.



2) Russia: a multiethnic empire.

The Austrian and Ottoman Empires are two very clear examples of multiethnic empires of the time and accordingly they get several national cultures in the game. Russia has also been a clearly multiethnic empire, and yet Russia cannot easily get more national cultures as Austria and the Ottoman Empire - as far as I know, it is only possible to obtain one of the central asian cultures as another national culture, and that's all.

Of course, I am not saying - for obvious reasons - that Russia should have "lithuanian" or "polish" as national cultures even if Russia held big posessions in these lands for a long time. But I think that the "ugric" culture should definitely be one of Russia's national cultures, with no doubt, as this culture has had presence in Russia practically from the beginning of the developement of Russia.

As there is no "ukranian" culture in UE2, but "ruthenian" instead, I firmly believe that Russia should have access to "ruthenian" as a national culture; after all, the link between Russia and Ukraine is already real in the game - it's very easy to be in good terms with Ukraine and diplo-annex it - , except for this important detail.

Finally, if it is possible to get one of the small central asian cultures that were under Russian authority, why shouldn't Russia be able to eventually get the other small central asian cultures from the region in Central Asia that was part of the Russian Empire? It doesn't make sense to be able to do it with one and not the others.

I don't exactly know how the national culture issue will work in EU3, but I think that whatever such advantages that Austria and the Ottoman Empire get should be also given to Russia, as it as much of a multiethnical empire as these other two.


That's all. If you've got this far, thank you for your attention!
I would like to hear your opinions.
 

unmerged(52192)

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the reason in eu2 it only gets a few cultures is to stop them steamrollering everyone near them. also almost anything in their land is thrown in as 'russian', so they don't really need anything else.
 

Blade!

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Bandersnatch said:
...Finally, if it is possible to get one of the small central asian cultures that were under Russian authority, why shouldn't Russia be able to eventually get the other small central asian cultures from the region in Central Asia that was part of the Russian Empire? It doesn't make sense to be able to do it with one and not the others.....

But Ugric and Ruthenian cultures were never incorporated in to governance, as opposed to the cossack system which was.
 

unmerged(19042)

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Most of Sibirs provinces were altai/pagan IIRC. Conversions made them russian/ orthodox. I dont think the Russina drive into the Kazakh, Uzbe etc territories began until the 1700 and 1800s, and they certainly were not contributing parts (ie in men, trade, etc in a way Greeks wre for the Ottomans) until later. You might want to give them Georgian and Armenian but that is only three provinces.


The point about Orthodox DoF is true as you can only help Ethiopia and Georgia (which the good player will soon diploannex), but there is an event where the b option gives Russia cores on the Byzantine territories. How do you feel about that event? I would also have liked to see an event with Peter III claiming coastal provinces on the Black Sea (which I added but arent in teh vanilla game).
 
Jan 9, 2005
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There should definitely still be the option to claim the title of Defender of the Orthodox Faith, even for ahistorical scenarios & mods. If I'm Russia and I make a load of Russian vassals or something, then I should be able to have my claim :)

But yeah, certainly, even if it's less used than the others, it should still be there for us to use :)
 

unmerged(41809)

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I had the event where I got cores in the Balkans. It's great, but it's just not the same as having a real DOF title that works well. That only works against the Ottoman Empire, but what about the central asian muslims?
 

unmerged(41809)

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And about that event, it's also rather weird having cassus belli agains Slavic Orthodox ountries I created in this area with land I took from the Ottomans just because I have cores in the area. It doesn't make much "historical sense"
 
Feb 15, 2006
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Another issue,

the khanates and conquer thereof. Needs to be far better than sofar.. which is either a slow conquest step by step, as nothing can be outright annexed. Ugh.
Thr other is by event, which is a bit better, but still far from elegant as it has a historical late date.

Me, i preferred to wipe out the mongols by 1440.
I suppose this will translate into 1470 with a startingadte on 1453 ;)


(ps how about Protector of Orthodoxy giving abunch of shields.. serbia, balkan & hellas.. incl Constantinople. And the relevant cultures to boot? Atleast as long as the holder of those lands isnt orthodox)
 
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Calgacus

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I think it's totally unnecessary to distinguish the eastern Slavs from each other; yes there were differences, but of no relevance to the game, esp. as the end date is the early 19th century. Remember that Ruthenia is originally just the Latin name for Russia. Putting them into artificial language pots serves no good purpose in the EU game.
 

unmerged(52192)

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Calgacus said:
I think it's totally unnecessary to distinguish the eastern Slavs from each other; yes there were differences, but of no relevance to the game, esp. as the end date is the early 19th century. Remember that Ruthenia is originally just the Latin name for Russia. Putting them into artificial language pots serves no good purpose in the EU game.
like i said before, it curbs russian excursion for a while stopping them flattening poland.
 

das

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About Russo-Turkish relations - actually, despite the Tartar raids, I am informed that in the pre-Romanov relations they were quite good. Certainly Ivan IV's reforms were at least partially inspired by the Ottoman system; also, on several occassions the Ottomans held back the Crimean Tartars from attacking Muscovy. That alliance was, ofcourse, mostly a pragmatic, realpolitik decision on both sides - Poland-Lithuania was a mutual enemy, after it weakened for various reasons and Russia strenghthened it naturally begun to clash ever more often with the Ottomans. Also, I do believe that the half-moon on the Russian churches was entirely Orthodox/Judeo-Christian in origin, but I could be wrong.

Also, in general, the Orthodox church was much weaker than the Catholic one, declining in power throughout the entire period. However, if EU III is to be able to properly reflect the various althistorical situations possible, Russia certainly should be capable of going by a theocratic, "Third Roman" path instead of the OTL Petrine, westernizing one; the determination of the course should probably partially depend on narrow-/open-mindness (much like that semi-random Westernization event shown for the Poles) and partially on the player's decisions.
 

unmerged(3908)

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Bandersnatch said:
I had the event where I got cores in the Balkans. It's great, but it's just not the same as having a real DOF title that works well. That only works against the Ottoman Empire, but what about the central asian muslims?
Well in EUIII you can get rid of cores I believe, so now you can release the orthodox vassals, get rid of your cores, claim DOF and then act 'normally' as other DOF as there are more orthodox countries.
 

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Calgacus said:
Really? We can't put obstacles in the way of flattening Poland. :D

:D

Russia's just fine in EU2 really - more cultures would just make it an absolute monster. Just fix the map ;)
 

unmerged(41809)

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Originally posted by Das:
in general, the Orthodox church was much weaker than the Catholic one, declining in power throughout the entire period

Maybe because on the one hand, the Orthodox world is more reduced than the Catholic one, and on the other hand, the Catholic center was in Rome and though Spain was the ram that pushed Catholicism forward for a long time, Spain just didn't take over control in the Catholic curch, and you had the Holy Roman Empire too; in the case of Russia, the Orthodox church was practically taken over by the state in a much more agressive way, so the Church itself may have been weaker than the Catholic Church, but at the same time it was much more of an "ideological instrument" of the Empire in this case.

Originally posted by D.Marlborough:
in EUIII you can get rid of cores I believe, so now you can release the orthodox vassals, get rid of your cores, claim DOF and then act 'normally'

That sounds great! It felt awquard having cassus belli against brother nations I had created myself and claims on land I sometimes didn't want.


Originally posted by DukeWilleo1630:
Being sole defender of the faith should give you a causus bellie on any nation that owns provinces of your faith that isn't of your faith. would that solve it?


I think that's a very good idea. It certainly would give you a chance of doing some real religion war campaigns in areas where you can get an isolated orthodox province to conquer it and try to establish an orthodox vassal. And it can enable you to try to prevent rival powers from converting provinces of your religion to theirs by starting a war to take them from them... much more interesting!
 

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As there is no "ukranian" culture in UE2, but "ruthenian" instead, I firmly believe that Russia should have access to "ruthenian" as a national culture; after all, the link between Russia and Ukraine is already real in the game - it's very easy to be in good terms with Ukraine and diplo-annex it - , except for this important detail.

Vell, Vell.

Ukraine in EU3 will be divided into Ukrainians and ruthenians. Thus I think its an idea to have Russia with National culture as Russian and Ugric (as its east_slavic bonus probobly would give it bonuses on these following...

# east_slavic

* russian
* ukrainian
* byelorussian
* ruthenian
 

das

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the Orthodox world is more reduced than the Catholic one

Not really the cause; the Orthodox church just wasn't allowed to get as much power or independence in OTL, neither by the Byzantines nor by the Russians. However, if things went differently in the 17th century the church and the state might have switched places...
 

LouisSteColombe

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The part that really bothered me when playing Russia was the Naval/Land slider and its impact on siberian colonisation: going Naval to colonize Siberia always felt counterintuitive... :wacko:

As far as EUIII is concerned, it depends how colonisation is modelled.

Louis,
 

unmerged(19042)

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:D Yes, but I'd tech to naval 11 and then get:
+1 shipyard.
+1 frontier.

and go full free trade, tweaking the narrow-inno slider slowly and waiting for events.