Russia needs nerf

[Colombo]

But russian strength IS a problem! Be it either lack of strong neighbours that could somehow deny its rapid expansion and slow it by not allowing Russia to overstretch its resources and march all their troops into siberia (in which case they would be promptly attacked and such powers would be able to get sizable territory before russia could react), too weak neighbours on the west, too large technological and troop type disparity between its neighbours on the east or land connection to the second most technological inferior groups of nations (together with not so great national ideas) due to inability of EU to model distance borders, infrastructure and inability to project full force everywhere.

Given that strength of nations doesn't exists "by itself" and strength of nations is only on relative scale (unless you take all nations in EU as scale, than russia is very strong), the relative strength of russia to bordering nations and nations on its expand zone is a problem.

 

[Rubidium]

Dai Viet during Tay Son (within the time period) actually fared pretty ok against China, they used a ton of dirty tricks to do so, however, using dirty tricks should be one of their national ideas

They start with +1 enemy attrition and being more difficult to core. If that's not supposed to represent dirty tricks, I don't know what it is. No AI voluntarily attacks them.

But yes, the Chinese tech group is atrocious, and the Hordes are far worse (do we really believe that nations like Khiva and Bukhara, which survived until the 1860s, were using the exact same equipment and tactics as in 1444?).

 

[brifbates]

Given that strength of nations doesn't exists "by itself" and strength of nations is only on relative scale (unless you take all nations in EU as scale, than russia is very strong), the relative strength of russia to bordering nations and nations on its expand zone is a problem.

Only in one direction, in the other you could argue they are clearly underpowered as they almost never achieve their historic performance...

 

[Colombo]

Only in one direction, in the other you could argue they are clearly underpowered as they almost never achieve their historic performance...

False logic. Thats like arguing why the river isn't flowing through that hill. And suggesting to increase flow of water so the water would go through that hill, but forgetting that whole valley on the other side is flooded.

You will expand in the way where it is easier to expand. Where you have enough resources. When Russia can defend itself when attacked by marching through whole siberia home or just having 350k soldiers against their neighbours (50k and 70k) and then just march the other way and conquer rest of asia... by making it stronger would not push russia the other way. Just speed flooding of valley.

 

[tyler717]

in game russia barely takes out lithuania in my games yet in real life there border was at in game Bessasrbia(excuse spelling) all the way north to ostprussen area effectively all lithuania and half of the polish lands by 1770

 

[Colombo]

Correlation doesn't equal causation. The reason why Russia doesn't conquer Europe could have little to common with the strength of Russia.

 

[Rubidium]

Correlation doesn't equal causation. The reason why Russia doesn't conquer Europe could have little to common with the strength of Russia.

The Ottomans are another nation that is extremely powerful but still underperforms its historical counterpart.

Conversely, we have nations like Manchu or Brandenburg that the AI generally fails with, while we also have nations like Denmark or Japan that generally overperform. In general, trying to expect game mechanics to exactly mirror history is doomed to fail. That said, I'd rather have a game where Russia (or the Ottomans) is too strong than one where it's too weak.

I wouldn't be opposed to improving the various Asian tech groups (it really is kinda dull to realize that your troops will never improve as a horde), but that looks likely to happen to some extent with the next DLC/patch anyway, since it seems the Monarch Point penalty at least will be going away and the Westernization process will be changed.

 

[Colombo]

In general, trying to expect game mechanics to exactly mirror history is doomed to fail.

Strawman.

I'd rather have a game where Russia (or the Ottomans) is too strong than one where it's too weak.

Fake choice.

I dont see Ottomans underperforming much. But I did not played much games as my first games was learning that hordes sucks and few games after I learned that I could effectively form Persia resulted in being stomped by Ottomans. Now, when I learned how to defeat them, 300k russians came and defeated me while defending on the hill with my 100k army.

 

[Novacat]

in game russia barely takes out lithuania in my games yet in real life there border was at in game Bessasrbia(excuse spelling) all the way north to ostprussen area effectively all lithuania and half of the polish lands by 1770

Russia barely goes after bessarabia because its continually going after Hordes/Chinese... AI will attack the weakest opponent and even the strongest Asian nations are still 'weaker' than Lithuania.

 

[brifbates]

Fake choice.

Yes and no. While technically there is the third option of "just right strength Russia" the reality is that is an incredibly fine line to find and ultimately depends not just on how strong Mus/Rus is but also every other nation around them. This obviously is a cascading problem as every time you strengthen or weaken one nation you have to re-balance every nation affected by that change and then re-evaluate all the interactions. The reality is that any "quick fix" change is extremely likely to result in one of the options given by Rubidium.

 

[Colombo]

Yes and no. While technically there is the third option of "just right strength Russia" the reality is that is an incredibly fine line to find and ultimately depends not just on how strong Mus/Rus is but also every other nation around them. This obviously is a cascading problem as every time you strengthen or weaken one nation you have to re-balance every nation affected by that change and then re-evaluate all the interactions. The reality is that any "quick fix" change is extremely likely to result in one of the options given by Rubidium.

Again fake choice. Even when equilibrium isn't reached, you can more easilly reach some delta of required equilibrium. Still letting russia be stronger or weaker, but not too strong or too weak as you have stated.

 

[Novacat]

Yes and no. While technically there is the third option of "just right strength Russia" the reality is that is an incredibly fine line to find and ultimately depends not just on how strong Mus/Rus is but also every other nation around them. This obviously is a cascading problem as every time you strengthen or weaken one nation you have to re-balance every nation affected by that change and then re-evaluate all the interactions. The reality is that any "quick fix" change is extremely likely to result in one of the options given by Rubidium.

Thats why I suggested to leave Russia alone and instead buff Timurids and Manchus. It would kill three birds with two stones. Manchus would finally be able to historically form Qing, Timurids would be able to historically form Mughals, and Russia would have its eastward expansion stopped at historical borders which would then force them to turn westward towards Lithuania.

 

[Pilot00]

You specifically asked for the AI to be able to pull something off that only human players can reasonably do.

You have not answered my question. If the Horde AI is supposd to be intelligent enough to know how to westernize perfectly, then why isnt the Russian AI allowed to be intelligent enough to stop that Horde push for westernization?

Even if the stars align and a Horde manages to Westernize, how the hell is it supposed to survive against a much bigger Russia? Remember, while the Horde was busy reforming and westerizing, the Russians are eating up one horde after the other, colonising Siberia, and growing bigger and bigger. Thats not even considering the Hordes are going to be enormously behind on technology so even if they do get into a fight, those advanced Western units will do shit because the Russians will have outnumbered and outteched the hordes.

As far as I am aware the mechanic (westernisation) is there to be taken full advantage off. Plus its not something easy to pull off. So whats stopping Russia from Westernising? The need to form Russia thats non stop wars and AE that prevents you from doing it. Not say the least from random events and all the monarch points. On a side note, you do understand that you condradict yourself? Russia either will westernise or eat everything not both. You cant do both at the same time. Neither the hordes do but thats a problem of strategy and timing.

And why only human players can do (now it became 'reasonably difficult' whereas it was impossible and a ridiculous notion....) it? I still havent heard a convincing arguement.

Oh and BTW answer half the questions I asked you first and then throw back at me that I havent answered one

But russian strength IS a problem! Be it either lack of strong neighbours that could somehow deny its rapid expansion and slow it by not allowing Russia to overstretch its resources and march all their troops into siberia (in which case they would be promptly attacked and such powers would be able to get sizable territory before russia could react), too weak neighbours on the west, too large technological and troop type disparity between its neighbours on the east or land connection to the second most technological inferior groups of nations (together with not so great national ideas) due to inability of EU to model distance borders, infrastructure and inability to project full force everywhere.

Given that strength of nations doesn't exists "by itself" and strength of nations is only on relative scale (unless you take all nations in EU as scale, than russia is very strong), the relative strength of russia to bordering nations and nations on its expand zone is a problem.

Same can be said about Castille, but none is complaining about Castille....

Russia barely goes after bessarabia because its continually going after Hordes/Chinese... AI will attack the weakest opponent and even the strongest Asian nations are still 'weaker' than Lithuania.

Finally....

 

[Novacat]

As far as I am aware the mechanic (westernisation) is there to be taken full advantage off. Plus its not something easy to pull off. So whats stopping Russia from Westernising? The need to form Russia thats non stop wars and AE that prevents you from doing it. Not say the least from random events and all the monarch points. On a side note, you do understand that you condradict yourself? Russia either will westernise or eat everything not both. You cant do both at the same time. Neither the hordes do but thats a problem of strategy and timing.

Except your forgetting three things.

1: Russia does not need to westernize. Infact, I recommend against westenizing as Russia. Yes, lategame Eastern cavalry sucks but cavalry is completely irrellevant after tech 12. Eastern Infantry is nearly on par with Western infantry, tech 30 Russain Mass has 52 pips while Jagers have 54 pips, Drills have 54 pips, Mixed Orders have 57 pips, and Napoleonic Squares have 60 pips. All of those are western tech 30 infantry.

2: The Hordes have to reform then westernize. Reform requires that either Economic, Innovative, or Administrative idea groups be completely filled, 90 legitimacy, 3 stab, and 200 admin points. Upon enacting Reform, Hordes lose their government bonuses, get upgraded to either Chinese or Muslim tech groups and unit types depending on their religion, and take a -5 stab hit and lose -200 admin points.

3: All other non-western tech groups have to westernize in order to fight against Russia. Ottoman infantry caps out at 38 pips, Muslims cap out at 37, Indians cap out at 32, Chinese cap out at 28. All of those infantry types will get steamrolled by Russian mass infantry. Thats before you consider the technological advantage that Russians will have over Asians, because Chinese tech group has -60% tech penalty and Indian tech group has -50% tech penalty.

And why only human players can do (now it became 'reasonably difficult' whereas it was impossible and a ridiculous notion....) it? I still havent heard a convincing arguement.

You have to get adjacency with a Western country. Where does one find a western country in the Steppes?

Seriously, if I have to school you on basic shit like this, it makes me start to question how much you really know about this game, and weither you give a damn about balance and are not just here out of some patriotic duty to the motherland.

Same can be said about Castille, but none is complaining about Castille....

What strength does Castille have? All those overseas colonies that Castille is getting nothing for because they are all overseas colonies?

 

[Pilot00]

I have kept on a civil manner dispite your continus and reckless insulting, so ill give one saying to tone down, I can play this game too and trust me you I can do so better. So no, in fact you dont need to school me in those Oh mr pro player. I know them thank you very much.

As to where the steppes will find a western region THATS THEIR PROBLEM. As is Mings, Ethiopias, Swahillys and the American civs. Why dont you cry for them too?
Genoa is not that far off as Crymea or Nogai BTW. If you want the Steppes to become buffed because you dont like Russian expansion that your problem too.

What strength does Castille have? And Castille gets nothing from overseas colonies? Now who needs some tutoring about shit I wonder....I suppose income, production and controlling half the globes trade are a side note......

 

[Comes Imperii]

Chinese get it pretty bad too, 60% penalty and their infantry is the third worst, only behind Sub-saharans and Steppe Hordes. Native Americans actually get better troops, and with the new DLC they will be able to get a plethora of bonuses from their native NIs including reducing their +150% Tech penalty to just +50% which is equivilant to indian tech.

I saw in todays' video that the base tech cost for natives is 350% of normal, with the advancement reducing it to only 250% that is 1500 points.

 

[Novacat]

As to where the steppes will find a western region THATS THEIR PROBLEM. As is Mings, Ethiopias, Swahillys and the American civs. Why dont you cry for them too?

The thing is, Ethiopia, Swahili, and American civs wont need to worry about a vastly superior eastern tech power coming over to annihilate them. As soon as a western power lands near the Native Americans, they can westernize. Hordes cannot westernize off of Russia, however, because Russia is eastern tech.

As for Ming, I have already suggested, nearly a half dozen times now, that Manchu should have its NIs buffed in order to be a bulwark against Russia as well as allowing them to conquer Ming more easily. So I have been 'crying' about them, as you say.

Genoa is not that far off as Crymea or Nogai BTW. If you want the Steppes to become buffed because you dont like Russian expansion that your problem too.

Again, whats stopping the Russians from DOWing Genoa and seizing Genoa's exclaves? Again, you want to give the AI human level intelligence, you have to apply it to both sides of the coin.

What strength does Castille have? And Castille gets nothing from overseas colonies? Now who needs some tutoring about shit I wonder....I suppose income, production and controlling half the globes trade are a side note......

Have you really played any other country than Russia? Are you really that clueless as to the effects of 'Distant overseas'?

Castille only gets 10% of the tax income and 20% of the production from distant overseas. They also only get 50% of the Manpower, 20% of the Land Force Limit, and 15% of the Naval Force Limit.

I saw in todays' video that the base tech cost for natives is 350% of normal, with the advancement reducing it to only 250% that is 1500 points.

Yup. Its definatly a poison pill on Native American viability.

 

[Comes Imperii]

I agree that Manchu's +10% manpower sounds a bit ridiculous compared to Russia's 125% or Ming's 100%, but I am doing a Manchu game right now, it's only 1500s and I want to try and see if I can contain Russia while staying in the Chinese tech group. I took expansion and started colonising bits of siberia and I'm pushing as much as I can westwards to stop russian colonisation.
But that's me a human player. AI is not able to plan its strategies ahead and Eastern (chinese and steppe) nations need better units overall, I agree with that.

 

[Maximonium]

Given the all you can eat buffet east of Russian lands in the form of resource rich weak natives, and all the bonuses and flavor that comes with Russia, I'm surprised they couldn't see the sheer power blob that Russia would become nearly every game. Either some tweaks are going to need to be made so the Russian might is dulled a little bit, or more likely, give some buffs to all the eastern cultures so they can hold their own a bit better.

Hell, fix the steppes at the very least, they're too much of a joke and not even worth the effort of playing, save the achievement and bragging rights to go with it.

 

[Incompetent]

The title of this thread is wrong. It should read 'Asia needs buff'