Russia needs nerf

[Laurwin]

I can understand that it would help the game, a lot, if you buffed Indian countries, and Chinese countries.

-it would make game more interesting and fun (not such pushover enemies in India, especially if it has become united; or China which more often is united by AI)

-it woud arguably be more realistic (China/India was a huge country at the time, with huge amounts of gold silver before these india was gobbled up by british, and lots of soldiers, lots and lots of soldiers...)

-hordes should not be buffed to ridiculous levels (let's be intellectually honest here, they cannot be both at the same time, hordes of movable tents, and horses, with their huge militaristic and economy bonuses, and STILL they would easily become this supposed scientific powerhouse out of nothingness essentially)

Basically fast and easy westernizing horde, seems to run against the current theory of how civilizations developed in the first place. Did hordes practice farming, did they have food stores and food surpluses to feed the intellectuals in their society? Did they emphasize learning and schools in their society? Did they have outside capital funding, for loans, to develop and modernize their economy? (this was one aspect of France Russia- relations in the early 20th century)

If horde should westernize, shouldn't they need to, basically reform their government into something more sensible first? Westernization should not be easy with horde government, because rapid westernization arguably wasn't very easy for any country, in a fast manner in the 18th or 19th centuries. (Japan was able to do it, but they had tons of rebels, Japanese also had lot of help from numberous other great powers, each of whom contributed their own amount into investing into Japanese modernization (USA france Britain Germany etc...)

 

[Novacat]

Is that a question with a meaning? 1.3.2

The swedish blob was only an issue in 1.1. AI improvements allowed Muscovy to hold itself together better and made it more unlikely for Denmark's Personal Unions to break.

-hordes should not be buffed to ridiculous levels (let's be intellectually honest here, they cannot be both at the same time, hordes of movable tents, and horses, with their huge militaristic and economy bonuses, and STILL they would easily become this supposed scientific powerhouse out of nothingness essentially)

Timurids would like to disagree with you here

Also, You are forgetting that both India and China were essentially ruled by the Hordes during this time period.

Basically fast and easy westernizing horde, seems to run against the current theory of how civilizations developed in the first place. Did hordes practice farming, did they have food stores and food surpluses to feed the intellectuals in their society? Did they emphasize learning and schools in their society? Did they have outside capital funding, for loans, to develop and modernize their economy? (this was one aspect of France Russia- relations in the early 20th century)

Repeating Timurids here

If horde should westernize, shouldn't they need to, basically reform their government into something more sensible first? Westernization should not be easy with horde government, because rapid westernization arguably wasn't very easy for any country, in a fast manner in the 18th or 19th centuries. (Japan was able to do it, but they had tons of rebels, Japanese also had lot of help from numberous other great powers, each of whom contributed their own amount into investing into Japanese modernization (USA france Britain Germany etc...)

I agree with you that Westernization should be difficult. The primary problem being faced, however, is that Westernization is currently difficult and not rewarding. Most Non-European countries, even the Timurid and Manchu powerhouses of the era, tend to have mediocre to downright terrible NIs. Even if you do westernize as an Asian country, unless you are Japan or Ming your NIs are going to drag you down against military powerhouses such as Russia.

Infact, I can tell you right now that Native Americans in 1.4 are going to have a similar problem that Steppe Hordes do currently, they will have to forfeit all of their bonuses (which are considerable, the Native Americans have tons of really powerful bonuses) in order to Reform and Westernize that it just may not be worth it, especially since the Native Americans actually get unit upgrades.

 

[Pilot00]

I can understand that it would help the game, a lot, if you buffed Indian countries, and Chinese countries.

-it would make game more interesting and fun (not such pushover enemies in India, especially if it has become united; or China which more often is united by AI)

-it woud arguably be more realistic (China/India was a huge country at the time, with huge amounts of gold silver before these india was gobbled up by british, and lots of soldiers, lots and lots of soldiers...)

-hordes should not be buffed to ridiculous levels (let's be intellectually honest here, they cannot be both at the same time, hordes of movable tents, and horses, with their huge militaristic and economy bonuses, and STILL they would easily become this supposed scientific powerhouse out of nothingness essentially)

Basically fast and easy westernizing horde, seems to run against the current theory of how civilizations developed in the first place. Did hordes practice farming, did they have food stores and food surpluses to feed the intellectuals in their society? Did they emphasize learning and schools in their society? Did they have outside capital funding, for loans, to develop and modernize their economy? (this was one aspect of France Russia- relations in the early 20th century)

If horde should westernize, shouldn't they need to, basically reform their government into something more sensible first? Westernization should not be easy with horde government, because rapid westernization arguably wasn't very easy for any country, in a fast manner in the 18th or 19th centuries. (Japan was able to do it, but they had tons of rebels, Japanese also had lot of help from numberous other great powers, each of whom contributed their own amount into investing into Japanese modernization (USA france Britain Germany etc...)

Your questions on as expressed under the 4th paragraph can be answerd as lukewarm yes as far as the Timurids are concearned (and as far as my knowledge goes, ill be with you on that tomorrow). What I do know right now is, that the Timurids had formed a state, not a horde kingdome as presented in the game. It was established on the left overs of the Persian empire (just as the Ottos did with the broken pieces of the Romans) and even furthered some stuff (namely the arts) but it was far from a (by then time) modern nation. It can be accurately described as a hybrid of a Mongolian/Persian state.

I agree on most of your analysis but I will repeat for 3rd or 4th time that the problem expressed in this thread is not that the hordes need a buff, but that the AI needs a buff on strategic thinking and if possible to factor in Westernisation into its long term plans. So far in my games I ve seen only Hungary attempt (a failed - too little too late) westernisation and I cant remember which other nation.

 

[Laurwin]

what I meant with the definition horde = steppe nomads khanate. (fractured remnants of Mongol empire e.g. golden horde) Clearly Manchus are not horde anymore if they became the new Chinese dynasty. They did become more powerful themselves, the Manchus, but to say that they elevated the power of the entire Chinese empire, overnight, would be another argument.

Arguably, if steppe nomads manage to integrate themselves into Chinese Indian societies, perhaps they are not so much the same steppe nomads in the first place anymore. You could say, they have reformed their governmental models, become stronger economically etc...

Just because Manchus took over China, it does NOT follow that some obscure Siberian steppe horde in the middle of nowhere, should be able to easily become a technology center of the world.

 

[Novacat]

I agree on most of your analysis but I will repeat for 3rd or 4th time that the problem expressed in this thread is not that the hordes need a buff, but that the AI needs a buff on strategic thinking and if possible to factor in Westernisation into its long term plans. So far in my games I ve seen only Hungary attempt (a failed - too little too late) westernisation and I cant remember which other nation.

Considering that Russia is not a western country, how could any of Russia's eastern neighbors westernize? That is one of the huge advantages of Eastern tech over Western: You have 90% of the firepower of Western, but primitive enemies cannot westernize off of you.

Just because Manchus took over China, it does NOT follow that some obscure Siberian steppe horde in the middle of nowhere, should be able to easily become a technology center of the world.

Again, though, how exactly do you seperate the extrodinary hordes, Manchu and Timurids, from the mediocre and poor hordes, such as Siber? Naturally through NIs.

But while Manchu and Timurids do get unique NIs, they are mediocre, at best.

I would give a minor buff to Hordes, basically give them additional units and maybe lighten the tech penalty so they only start hurting after 1600, then I would massively buff Manchu and Timurids. Both of these countries are massively underperforming compared to history, and they will serve as a useful bulwark against the Russians.

My main 'buff' to the Hordes would be to give them additional unit types, as well as possibly reducing their tech penalty to 65-60% or so, which is roughly equivilant to Chinese. The Hordes should be falling apart in 1600, not 1500.

 

[Laurwin]

I do admit that the Indian and Chinese tech group looks a little bit, shall we say punishing (LOL) Especially compared to the Ottoman tech group. (clearly the Chinese and Indians couldn't have been that bad?)

That is indeed another angle to the mechanic of westernization/ tech groups, that Hordes cannot "easternize", gradually improve their tech bonuses etc... This would probably have been the case, in the event that the horde would be able to claim the throne of a more "advanced" country (Timurid, Manchu, Mughal). They would be able to then, get acess to more resources, human and natural resources.

 

[Novacat]

Timurids and Mughals are one in the same. The Mughals were formed after the Timurids conquered Delhi.

Also, currently Hordes get a 'Reform' mechanic which enables them to either achieve Muslim or Chinese tech groups, but at extrodinary cost (-200 adm, -5 stab). On top of this, reform removes the Steppe Horde government and the bonuses it brings, leaving the horde entirely dependant on NIs of which horde NIs are not that great.

 

[Laurwin]

Timurids and Mughals are one in the same. The Mughals were formed after the Timurids conquered Delhi.

Also, currently Hordes get a 'Reform' mechanic which enables them to either achieve Muslim or Chinese tech groups, but at extrodinary cost (-200 adm, -5 stab). On top of this, reform removes the Steppe Horde government and the bonuses it brings, leaving the horde entirely dependant on NIs of which horde NIs are not that great.

I'm not completely sure on improving horde tech group, into Chinese tech. (from the game start 1444)

I mean cmon, srsly. Give the Chinese some credit! Chinese should definitely buffed though. And Indian tech group also.

I'm all for improving horde unique ideas though. Denmark and Oman and these kind of countries get theoretically powerful empires with the help of their unique ideas (when their future empires are consolidated) I don't see why hordes should not deserve some love also. Yea, I can see that a westernized Japan, in EU4 would BE A NIGHTMARE TO FIGHT AGAINST. (unique ideas really do help some countries more than others, but yea...)

But why should hordes, fully and thoroughly, "have their cake and eat it too" (with horde government bonuses, obviously they should lose them, if they ever become some other government)

 

[Novacat]

The thing about Chinese is that it covers not only China and Japan, but Korea, Indonesia, and Indochina. For that reason, its current penalties are okay, and Japan/China could make up for it with strong NIs. Infact, Japan and Ming already have very strong NIs, its just Manchu whom has very weak NIs which is strange considering they were far more successful than either Ming (which fell apart in 1644) or Japan (whom was largely embroiled in internal issues for virtually all of EU4)

But why should hordes, fully and thoroughly, "have their cake and eat it too" (with horde government bonuses, obviously they should lose them, if they ever become some other government)

Horde NIs are fine if they were allowed to keep their government bonuses. However, its highly unlikely that Paradox will allow this, ever, after the 1.3 reform requirement change. So, in that aspect, it makes sense that Hordes should either have better NIs since they are more or less mandated to lose their government bonuses.

 

[Incompetent]

In my games Ottomans need buffs, they just sit there while their enemies gobble up provinces around them.

It's the Ottoman AI that needs a buff, if anything. The best case of Doing It Wrong I've seen from them so far is when they allied with (Christian) Wallachia, when they had a mission to vassalise Wallachia.

 

[Novacat]

It's the Ottoman AI that needs a buff, if anything. The best case of Doing It Wrong I've seen from them so far is when they allied with (Christian) Wallachia, when they had a mission to vassalise Wallachia.

They did really well in my last Swedish game. They managed to extend to their historical borders and a bit beyond, and fielded one of the largest armies in the world. Quite frightening.

 

[sgt.stickybomb]

They did really well in my last Swedish game. They managed to extend to their historical borders and a bit beyond, and could field a larger army than anyone in the world. Quite frightening.

View attachment 96431

I love how the Swedish people migrated to Asia

 

[Novacat]

Primary culture was Tartar, which made them more of a Steppe Horde with a penchant for leaders named Johan.

 

[sgt.stickybomb]

Primary culture was Tartar, which made them more of a Steppe Horde with a penchant for leaders named Johan.

to be on topic, I think the reason the ottomans did so well was because you may have effed Muscovy pretty bad, cause usually they reach Russia's borders and everything goes downhill from there

 

[Vicar of Christ]

Wanted to try the Oirat Horde (buddhist horde for the win!). By early 1600 was doing very well, converting provinces and feeding vassal, then annexing. Standard fare. Went Religious up to divine supremacy (Buddist being crap proselytizer they need the help, plus the discount on stab boost is a nice safe guard), then max Innovative to reform my gov. My mongol Khanate vassal being my eastern frontier, south I was about to eat my large Nepal Vassal (with a smaller delhi to replace it), in central Asia tiny Timurid and tiny Kazan were my buffers. Russia was my greatest threat standing accross Kazan and a beaten up nogai. I had rushed and seized a colony to bar Russia from expending eastward (Lost a few marginal province in that war but I wanted to limit the long term growth).

Russia had lost a war to a large alliance in the first 20 year of the game and they had been a bit behind schedule growth wise... but eventually made up for it ten folds by inheriting denmark.

I was ready to reform for a while but I couldn't get a 100 legit heir so I couldn't do it. I was already 3 tech behind in military tech and I knew I couldn't stand with eastern tech for much longer with my steppe unit, I needed a least chinese tech to mend the gap but I thought I was safe for the time being nonetheless because I had invested a lot in building up my manpower. I had a manpower pool around 75000 and a large standing army (55ish, close to max but not quite) and there were still a number of weaker prey to distract Russia (including a derelict nogai, a 1-province novgorod (not in capital) a probably more targets in western europe close to its danish holdings).

Didn't happen. Russia and its 175k army (about 40k above their force limit!) with matching manpower declared war. Then proceded to capture everything from Kazan to south of Bhutan. What the heck. They didn't even break a sweat.

 

[Colombo]

Laurwin: The problem with your definition is that most of hordes had cities. Not just tents and a lots of horses.

 

[Pilot00]

Considering that Russia is not a western country, how could any of Russia's eastern neighbors westernize? That is one of the huge advantages of Eastern tech over Western: You have 90% of the firepower of Western, but primitive enemies cannot westernize off of you.

Dont ask me, ask the guys who did it. If I would hazzard a guess it would be by probably pushing to the west as early as possible and getting provinces there as to have western neighbours. Or push south and turtle up till colonies start to plop.

But why should hordes, fully and thoroughly, "have their cake and eat it too" (with horde government bonuses, obviously they should lose them, if they ever become some other government)

+1, not with hordes in generall but all of them.

 

[Novacat]

Dont ask me, ask the guys who did it. If I would hazzard a guess it would be by probably pushing to the west as early as possible and getting provinces there as to have western neighbours. Or push south and turtle up till colonies start to plop.

So your expecting a horde AI to be able to replicate player exploits against Russia?

Do you realize how rediculous you sound?

Laurwin: The problem with your definition is that most of hordes had cities. Not just tents and a lots of horses.

This. People tend to imagine the Steppes as uninhabited, mostly barren wastelands, when in reality thats not the case.

 

[brifbates]

So your expecting a horde AI to be able to replicate player exploits against Russia?

Do you realize how rediculous you sound?

This. People tend to imagine the Steppes as uninhabited, mostly barren wastelands, when in reality thats not the case.

So address the actual issues... Go back to step by step westernization, give hordes a new idea set when they reform the government and lose the horde bonuses, put in some supply limit reductions for range from capital (or some other logistic system), etc..

All nerfing Muscovy/Russia will do is change the blob color that rolls over the hordes from yellow/green to blue or pink because either Sweden/Scandinavia or PLC (in some fashion or other) will just roll over a nerfed Russia and take their place rolling eastward.

 

[Novacat]

So address the actual issues... Go back to step by step westernization, give hordes a new idea set when they reform the government and lose the horde bonuses, put in some supply limit reductions for range from capital (or some other logistic system), etc..

*sigh*

My suggestions are, from the very beginning:

1: Give the Hordes some unit upgrades, and perhaps reduce tech penalty of hordes. Hordes should be declining after 1600, not 1500.
2: Seriously buff up Manchu/Timurid NIs. Considering how successful those states were during the EU4 time period, they should have NIs equivilant of top-tier European nations.

I already said, a long time ago, that Russia was not the root of the problem. The root of the problem are Hordes, China, and India doing the rough equivilant of rolling over and dying when any European shows up. Russia just has a nice headstart since it has a land connection to asia.

Im arguing against the people whom disagree that anything needs to be changed at all, not the people whom agree that the asian natives are perhaps a bit too weak.