Russia needs nerf

[Pilot00]

Western can afford a string of mediocre rulers a heck of a lot better and in the late game has vastly superior units. Also, the western nations listed have significantly stronger military NIs than Russia on top of the superior units.

Against the ai, the 3 nations listed have laughably easy times dealing with the so-called threat of "each other"-England can simply abandon the continent, France can just overpower Spain and England, Spain can make nice with France, eat Portugal, and colonise the rest of the world and Austria/HRE is no immediate threat... On the other hand, an early game Muscovy has the potential to be wrecked if the neighbors decide to go after it instead of each other as they aren't noticeably stronger than their neighbors, particularly when lacking the lucky nation bonus.

+1

I have never seen the three enter any meaningfull wars with each other, nor stirring any serius rackus in the mainland (occassionally france roflstomps its neighbours but thats it).

All three maintain their power by colonising every nook and cranny.

 

[Novacat]

Western can afford a string of mediocre rulers a heck of a lot better and in the late game has vastly superior units. Also, the western nations listed have significantly stronger military NIs than Russia on top of the superior units.

You do realize that the very fact that Western and Eastern are comparable to eachother should tell you to how strong Eastern is. Eastern has 20% penalty which is reduced to 10% with Russian NIs. 10% is nothing as far as tech group penalties go. Ottomans have 25%, Muslims have 45% penalty, Indians have 50% penalty, Chinese have 60% penalty. On top of that, Indian and Chinese only have base MP growth of 2. I wont even get into the New World/SubSaharan/Steppe. Then you have Eastern mass infantry with 52 pips. By comparison, Napoleonic Square has 60 pips and everyone else has 38 pips (Ottomans) and below. The Chinese lategame infantry has only 28 pips. For all intents and purposes Eastern tech group can curbstomp asians just as well as western can.

Eastern is the only tech group that can get away with -not- westernizing, and not westernizing is a good idea because how much of an MP sink westernizing is. You have to fall 8 techs behind, you lose all your MP and get -100 in the hole, and on top of that you get tons of events during westernization that removes monarch points.

As for Russia having terrible NIs?

What are you smoking, and can I have some?

+50% Land Forcelimits
+125% Manpower
+10% Manpower Recovery
-10% Tech cost
-15% Core cost
+0.5 Army Tradition
-50% Infantry Cost
+10% Production Efficiency

Its pretty much a consensus that Russia has one of the strongest NI sets in the game. Prussian ideas are the only ones that are definatly stronger, most other European countries only get +10% Discipline which is not enough to offset the LFL and Manpower advantage. Sure Sweden also gets rediculous modifiers but thats entirely because of the event modifiers, Sweden actually has a fairly mediocre NI set if you take away the overpowered event mods.

Against the ai, the 3 nations listed have laughably easy times dealing with the so-called threat of "each other"-England can simply abandon the continent, France can just overpower Spain and England, Spain can make nice with France, eat Portugal, and colonise the rest of the world and Austria/HRE is no immediate threat... On the other hand, an early game Muscovy has the potential to be wrecked if the neighbors decide to go after it instead of each other as they aren't noticeably stronger than their neighbors, particularly when lacking the lucky nation bonus.

If this was true, then why is it that we regularly see a giant green blob in Siberia and China while France, England, Spain, Portugal, and Austria end up at their historical sizes, barring one of those countries getting lucky with a PU?

 

[Beagá]

The game is indeed too lenient with Eastern nations and the -10% tech cost bonus Russia get is a bit of BS.

I´d say it should be removed.

Making the hordes be able to "muslimize" as was already proposed some times would be also nice to put a check on expansion.

 

[deezee]

Keep in mind that during the relevant time period, was actually forced to cede territory to the Qing Chinese (Treaty of Nerchinsk in 1689). This was mostly just a border skirmish rather than a full scale conflict, but it shows that Russia still had serious limitations in its ability to act during this time period, especially since they also suffered serious setbacks in genuine full-scale wars such as the failed Persian Expedition in 1796. While it is true that the Russians would one day become a global power capable of dominating Eurasia, this is long, long after the end of the EU IV time period, in which Russia actually suffered defeats at the hands of the Chinese and central Asians, compared to having massively superior troop quality AND quantity as they do in game.

 

[grisamentum]

This is incredibly stupid, imho. Even as Siberian Sweden its not uncommon for Portugal or Castille to colonise Kamchatka before I could reach it, which results in me having to war them and burn the colony.

I've even see Spain colonize Kamchatka before Russia could reach it. That's how stupid colonization is in this game right now. Hokkaido is ALWAYS colonized by Spain or Portugal, too.

 

[Pilot00]

If this was true, then why is it that we regularly see a giant green blob in Siberia and China while France, England, Spain, Portugal, and Austria end up at their historical sizes, barring one of those countries getting lucky with a PU?

Because they have painted up the empty spaces of the map

 

[Novacat]

Because they have painted up the empty spaces of the map

I was not aware that the Steppe Hordes and China were 'empty'.

 

[Pilot00]

I was not aware that the Steppe Hordes and China were 'empty'.

Are we talking about France England Spain and Portugal right?
Yes Americas and half of Africa and the Islands everywere are empty.

EDIT: I never claimed the Russians in my game ever crushed Ming and the steppe hordes fail mostly due to rebelions rather than Russia.

EDIT2: The 10% penalty might be called BS and usually can be circumvented entirely with national univercity and western arms trade, but also gents consider that France gets allready a tech discount and its already western.

As has been said westernising eastern tech groups might not be profitable in the long run unless you want to fight in Europe itself.

 

[Novacat]

EDIT: I never claimed the Russians in my game ever crushed Ming and the steppe hordes fail mostly due to rebelions rather than Russia.

Russia often eats up the Steppe Hordes (Aside from Crimea), than the Manchus, then starts eating into China proper by the end date. It really likes using that expansion CB.

 

[Pilot00]

Russia often eats up the Steppe Hordes (Aside from Crimea), than the Manchus, then starts eating into China proper by the end date. It really likes using that expansion CB.

So what? I really dont understand what this has to do with our discussion to be honest (then perhaps I might have missed the point).
I could very well do the same with Byzantium and I start from a waaaaay more difficult position. Not to say anything on the Ottomans.

 

[grisamentum]

So what? I really dont understand what this has to do with our discussion to be honest (then perhaps I might have missed the point).
I could very well do the same with Byzantium and I start from a waaaaay more difficult position. Not to say anything on the ottomans.

He's talking about AI Russia, not the human player.

 

[Pilot00]

He's talking about AI Russia, not the human player.

My question remains in context, the Ottos will eat away everything in Asia and Africa and sometimes some hordes.
I still dont get the point sorry.

 

[-Malovane-]

I've said it before, and will say it again - Russia itself doesn't need a nerf. Lucky nations need to be disabled.

I've never seen an AI Muscovy hit the time of troubles, except with Lucky nations off. They continually have high stability because of the never ending flood of AMP coming from their super-rulers. So, instead of dealing with that for 20-30 years - they just keep expanding and expanding.

None of the luckies really even need those extra bonuses to compete and obtain historical borders/prominence. So why are they there?

The only things I might change about the Muscovy experience would be:

a) Reducing Siberian tax base average from 2 to 1.5
b) Events in which Crimeans/Kazans/Oirat/etc... raid border provinces - lowering taxes and production for a few years, harming relations in the process..

 

[Beagá]

The colony issue really is result of the simplistic approach Paradox took with base tax, instead of using a population model - that didn´t even need to be complex like Victoria 2. It´s not a problem with Siberia only, but the New World as well, which should have production that scaled with time as population grew.

 

[Novacat]

My question remains in context, the Ottos will eat away everything in Asia and Africa and sometimes some hordes.
I still dont get the point sorry.

Ottos never eat hordes, what happens is PU/Annexation. Ottos mainly eat the territory they got historically which is North Africa, Middle East and Balkans, which is why im fine with them. Ottoman tech group is also much weaker than eastern tech group, and Ottoman NIs are not as amazing as Russian NIs. Janissaries are the only thing Ottomans have going for them but Janissaries fall apart between 1600-1700.

 

[Incompetent]

Making the hordes be able to "muslimize" as was already proposed some times would be also nice to put a check on expansion.

They already can - it's called reforming the government. But I don't know how often the AI even tries to reform, and even if it did, it would probably be too late to put up any sort of resistance to Russia.

 

[Pilot00]

Ottos never eat hordes, what happens is PU/Annexation. Ottos mainly eat the territory they got historically which is North Africa, Middle East and Balkans, which is why im fine with them. Ottoman tech group is also much weaker than eastern tech group, and Ottoman NIs are not as amazing as Russian NIs. Janissaries are the only thing Ottomans have going for them but Janissaries fall apart between 1600-1700.

Dont eat hordes? Really? I have to search my saves gimme some time to go back home. My point (which yet I see no satisfactory contrary answer) is why is Russia considered Op while everyone and their mother can defeat the hordes and the West can collonise every nook and cranny.

 

[Novacat]

Dont eat hordes? Really? I have to search my saves gimme some time to go back home. My point (which yet I see no satisfactory contrary answer) is why is Russia considered Op while everyone and their mother can defeat the hordes and the West can collonise every nook and cranny.

Because the West doesnt get as much from its colonies as Russia gets from Siberia. At best, the West gets Trade + Tarriffs. Russia gets full tax + production + trade from Siberia.

Everyone and their mother can defeat the hordes, yes, which is exactly the problem: The Hordes 'downfall' comes too fast, too hard. I should not be able to stackwipe Horde stacks while outnumbered 2:1 in 1500, yet thats exactly what happens.

They already can - it's called reforming the government. But I don't know how often the AI even tries to reform, and even if it did, it would probably be too late to put up any sort of resistance to Russia.

The problem is that reforming the government has rediculous requirements, you need to complete an admin tree (innovative, administrative, or economic), you need 200 adm, and you need 3 stab and finally 90 legitimacy. Then you lose 5 stab, 200 adm, and horde government bonuses.

All that for Muslim/Chinese tech/units.

 

[Loke]

Op is correct! Russia needs a nerf...

 

[Mightypeon]

Well, some opinions from me:

Its the hordes, and also the Chinese techgroups, that need considerable buffs.
I cannot speak about Indian tech groups since that simply isnt my area of expertise, but Manchu/Ming/DaiNammese (Tay Son, later Nguyen) armies were often quite serious buisness, and Europeans trying to conquer them before the end of the EU4 time frame should better pack some very very serious heat.

Right now, they can be conquered by 10K blokes with too much sparetime. The only nation in the area for which "getting conquered by 10K dudes with time to kill" is somewhat accurate is Sibir. Greater/Lesser Nogai, Oirats/Mongols/Kazan (Siege of Kazan was incredibly vicious, it also showed that Kazan could actually do defensive siege warfare quite well, Muscovy needed foreign sieging expertize to make progress) put up quite a fight, Crimea/Manchu occassionally even won.