Russia needs nerf

[Novacat]

As to the context yes it is wrong. Because you inderectly propose that once the changes are made, the Russians will get better in what they do but the changes I propose will have a global effect and in a couple ways that wont effect the Russians. First and formost the biggest weakness that the hordes face is internal turmoil due to rebels and multi religious groups that tear them appart.

The hordes are religiously homogenous with exception of Timurids. The horde rebel death spiral comes from being at peace for too long, which causes pretender rebels to spawn. I do agree that the pretender rebel event should have its prerequisites tightened somewhat, but that alone is not going to save the hordes.

The russians have none of that, and perhaps mostly due to their colonising but once they get the hordes eaten they mostly convert them. Why the hordes dont do that in their claimed territory I dont know, perhaps since you know how the engine works you can shed some light?

1: Non-Christian religions are terrible at conversion.
2: Shiite and Sunni have -2% penalty to conversion. Combine with 1, and Shiite will have a hard time converting Sunni, and vice versa. This is WAD.
3: Russians pick Religious ideas, which makes converting a whole lot easier.
4: Its WAD that Timurids loses Persia to Nationalist rebels.

Once we find out how to fix that we can begin finding out the problem about the Chinese, if there is any (I dont argue that there isnt). However instead of resorting to buff this nerf that, we should find out the global problem first (which is the AI and its innability to cope up with many problems) and fix that first.

The AI can cope plenty fine. The Hordes use the same AI as the Russians. Its just that the Hordes have no chance of surviving against Russia. Infact, you should try horde for yourself. Maybe when you see a Horde stack get 100% annihilated by a Russian stack half its size, maybe you will change your mind.

On a side note since you say I want the status quo maintained, check a couple pages back, that I said I have no problem to change how the hordes work, but I believe priority should be the AI. So yet again you accuse me of the wrong things.

You said you were against any horde buff, period.

 

[TingJonKi]

Ming is fine. It was a dying state that did not even survive the EU4 era, it was conquered and annexed in its entirety by the Manchus. Whom also conquered the area currently inhabited by the Oirat Horde as well as successfully fought off Russian incursion into its Manchurian homelands. If anything, the powerful potential of Ming through its NIs, Decisions and Faction system is very generous.

Its the Manchus that need a buff. This will enable it to more easily resist Japanese/Russian aggression, as well as conquer Ming and the Oirats.

Manchu can actually conquer Ming and the other hordes in the area pretty easily, what they lack is a proper CB to conquer china so they get huge coring costs and AE

thats why AI Manchu never forms Qing but still is able to eat away little parts of china over the years

Same reason why the Mughals cant conquer India, or the Russians wont expand into Lithuania, or the Ottomans to their historical borders even though they can all beat their rivals

 

[Novacat]

Manchu can actually conquer Ming and the other hordes in the area pretty easily, what they lack is a proper CB to conquer china so they get huge coring costs and AE

thats why AI Manchu never forms Qing but still is able to eat away little parts of china over the years

Well, ideally, they should eat away at the Oirats first, and after the Oirats then move on to China proper. However, In all my games I never even seen them conquer the Oirats, despite having the tribal feud CB to do so.

Also, the only time I have seen Manchu eat into China is when China falls apart on its own, which has happened in none of my games.

Most of my games they just sit there and maybe lose/gain one or two provinces, until I conquer them.

 

[JimboOmega]

The problem with Muscovy/Russia has nothing to do with China, and little to do with the Steppe Hordes. In my game, I wound up taking most of the Ukraine, and Livonian Order has held the northern baltics. Ming is untouched, Finland is part of Sweden... Uzbek still exists... and Russia (As Muscovy) has come nowhere close to the Black Sea. Or the Caspian, for that matter. Muscovy has been trapped in a PU under France and unable to take new territory for a lot more than 50 years. And yet:



Sorted by manpower. Granted, that France-Muscovy PU is no small part of my frustration (as Byzantium). But the scale of their manpower is just ridiculous. Thanks to superior tactics (and in spite of the 6/4 generals they were fielding), I was able to eat maybe 100k of their soldiers without losing a regiment, but eventually got overwhelmed.

I just can't see the justification - why do they have SO much manpower from such poor lands? How can they have three times what Ming (which exists in roughly its game start form) does?

 

[Novacat]

I just can't see the justification - why do they have SO much manpower from such poor lands?

Because those lands arent poor. Seriously, average basetax of eastern europe is very high, I would even go as far as to argue that its nearly just as high if not higher than Western europe.

 

[SweetHalcyHS]

Because those lands arent poor. Seriously, average basetax of eastern europe is very high, I would even go as far as to argue that its nearly just as high if not higher than Western europe.

This. Russia in history sucked because it had a chain of 0/0/0 rulers with all sorts of bad shit domestically, not because of its environment.

That being said, it is OP.

I have rarely seen Manchu succeed in Asia, to be honest. The Oirat Horde eats up the Mongol Khanate and Manchu can't do anything unless it somehow wins a war very, early on. Of course, Oirat is fucked due to being a Nomad, but even then, Manchu does nothing significant.

The real big dog there is Japan, where the shogunate tends to diploannex everything like crazy, or if not, they still unite quickly enough; and then is a monster that's equal to that of Ming, without all the silly restrictions.

 

[Novacat]

This. Russia in history sucked because it had a chain of 0/0/0 rulers with all sorts of bad shit domestically, not because of its environment.

This actually gives me an idea for providing a very mild nerf to AI Russia: Why not remove their initial lucky status? Basically, have it so that they only become lucky after 1600.

The real big dog there is Japan, where the shogunate tends to diploannex everything like crazy, or if not, they still unite quickly enough; and then is a monster that's equal to that of Ming, without all the silly restrictions.

The funny thing is, the only Asian countries with powerful NIs are... you guessed it, Japan and Ming. Well, and Daimyos.

You know, im getting the feeling that NIs have a much bigger impact on how well a country does than originally thought.

 

[brifbates]

This. Russia in history sucked because it had a chain of 0/0/0 rulers with all sorts of bad shit domestically, not because of its environment.

That being said, it is OP.

To me this reads as: lucky is OP. Because honestly that is the difference. Turn off lucky and see how Muscovy fares when it gets Time of Troubles or a string of bad rulers. It's an entirely different game...

Also:

The hordes are religiously homogenous with exception of Timurids. The horde rebel death spiral comes from being at peace for too long, which causes pretender rebels to spawn. I do agree that the pretender rebel event should have its prerequisites tightened somewhat, but that alone is not going to save the hordes.

The problem isn't rebels spawning, it's the all too frequent occurrence of rebels spawning and the ai completely ignoring their existence until they've captured a province or two. Especially in combination with the events that are triggered by allowing a rebel siege to succeed. You also see it in wartime where an ai doomstack will sit in a siege while the next province over an easily beatable stack carries out their own siege.

 

[Rubidium]

The funny thing is, the only Asian countries with powerful NIs are... you guessed it, Japan and Ming. Well, and Daimyos.

You know, im getting the feeling that NIs have a much bigger impact on how well a country does than originally thought.

I suspect it has more to do with the fact that Japan is (once it diploannexes the daimyo) large, rich, and with nothing stopping it from going conquest happy. It even has a mission to conquer Korea (which admittedly is historical), which gives it a foothold on the continent. Once that happens, whose going to stop it, Manchu?

Ming still not infrequently collapses into a mess of weak successor states, but that generally happens too late for Manchu to take advantage.

I do agree that Manchu needs a buff, both to their ideas (10% manpower is silly weak for a nation that will become China, and the rest aren't overpowering to compensate) and to the tech group (I would personally give them 1 more set of upgraded units, to represent the adoption of firearms). That said, we know that the patch/DLC is going to change the tech groups (probably getting rid of the -X MP/month penalties) and the westernization process.

 

[Pilot00]

The hordes are religiously homogenous with exception of Timurids. The horde rebel death spiral comes from being at peace for too long, which causes pretender rebels to spawn. I do agree that the pretender rebel event should have its prerequisites tightened somewhat, but that alone is not going to save the hordes.

1: Non-Christian religions are terrible at conversion.
2: Shiite and Sunni have -2% penalty to conversion. Combine with 1, and Shiite will have a hard time converting Sunni, and vice versa. This is WAD.
3: Russians pick Religious ideas, which makes converting a whole lot easier.
4: Its WAD that Timurids loses Persia to Nationalist rebels.

I am well aware of those things, hence why I propose a rework on the AI, anything with more meaning to propose except foolish attempts at my credibility? So far you are only hitting your own with your unsuccessfull antics.

The AI can cope plenty fine. The Hordes use the same AI as the Russians. Its just that the Hordes have no chance of surviving against Russia. Infact, you should try horde for yourself. Maybe when you see a Horde stack get 100% annihilated by a Russian stack half its size, maybe you will change your mind.

So how can they cope if they dont make the steps to become able to eliminate religious disparity (according to you) due to its difficulty and falling appart? Falling apart by failing to use the right tools and ideas is not good AI management.

BTW I defeated the Russians just fine by simply cutting their colonisation efforts thank you very much.

You said you were against any horde buff, period.

Yes indeed I said that... NOT:

From a couple pages before:

I am not insulting anyone that did not insulted me and I didnt even make any arguement based on fallacies. As you can see I respond to you in a civil manner, however those who start to insult me wont find a reprevie, I am quite able to respond in kind as you see.

So in order to make my possition clear:

I dont believe that Russia is OP. Neither I believe that hordes need to be strongly (or otherwise)buffed, though I am not opposed to it either. What I advocate is that the game in general suffers from a weak AI that doesnt allow it to play the game as it supposed to. I never said make the AI to have human parity in reasoning but make so to be able to execute cohesive plans and at least the basic tools on its arsenal. Namely prevent itself from been destroyed by rebels and calculate the odds and a possible strategy that will allow it to westernise. Not going all in but when the oportunity presents itself to do so. Those are some suggestions that would benefit the game in general not a single side of it, namely the Americas will benefit as much as the hordes.

So I said that I am of open mind but I also have my own consept of how to do it and my own opinion...as you said: PERIOD.

How many times need I tell you to learn to read the other parties posts? You are embarrassing yourself.

Because those lands arent poor. Seriously, average basetax of eastern europe is very high, I would even go as far as to argue that its nearly just as high if not higher than Western europe.

On that we agree.

To me this reads as: lucky is OP. Because honestly that is the difference. Turn off lucky and see how Muscovy fares when it gets Time of Troubles or a string of bad rulers. It's an entirely different game...

And agree to that too. And I have to say that lucky IS op. Mainly because it is the same nations that get the lucky bonus. So what is strong (or has the potential) only becomes stronger.

 

[Novacat]

I am well aware of those things, hence why I propose a rework on the AI, anything with more meaning to propose except foolish attempts at my credibility? So far you are only hitting your own with your unsuccessfull antics.

...and pray tell what an improved AI is supposed to do?

So how can they cope if they dont make the steps to become able to eliminate religious disparity (according to you) due to its difficulty and falling appart? Falling apart by failing to use the right tools and ideas is not good AI management.

BTW I defeated the Russians just fine by simply cutting their colonisation efforts thank you very much.

Prove it. Got any AARs? Or screenshots? Far east Horde or Chinese only, defeating Russia by 1500 with Golden Horde/Kazan does not count.

So I said that I am of open mind but I also have my own consept of how to do it and my own opinion...as you said: PERIOD.

Then lets hear it, and something actually mechanically useful instead of nebulous 'Improve AI!'.

Remember that Westernizing is not enough for a Horde to stop the Russians, as the Russians can presently crush westernized hordes/chinese. Killing Russia before 1500 does not count either, as thats pretty much killing Russia before its NIs kick in.

 

[Pilot00]

...and pray tell what an improved AI is supposed to do?



Prove it. Got any AARs? Or screenshots? Far east Horde or Chinese only, defeating Russia by 1500 with Golden Horde/Kazan does not count.



Then lets hear it, and something actually mechanically useful instead of nebulous 'Improve AI!'.

Remember that Westernizing is not enough for a Horde to stop the Russians, as the Russians can presently crush westernized hordes/chinese. Killing Russia before 1500 does not count either, as thats pretty much killing Russia before its NIs kick in.

All I have to say is reread my posts from the first place as I did to find my response. I am not responsible for your innability to read and understand written facts that exist through the thread. I have repeated my position in almost every post (more or less) it is only vague for you and your vain and ultimately failed attempt to forge a standing arguement against it which you are unable to do so.

I need not prove anything to someone who demonstrates childish behaviour. Further more I will provide you with the proof you seek if 1)you backtrack the thread and answer every question and arguement I proposed to you and you promtly ignored.
2) Provide me with any sort of work that shows you know the mechanics of the game engine as you professed. I can play this game too and unlike you I always am sure of myself

Furthemore you continue to steer the convertation into the wrong place to avoid the counter arguements and the fact that you dont know what to say....childish indeed. To be expect from someone who is uses the word period without been sure of something.

EDIT: And just for your info I didnt do it before 1500 or with the above factions. Pray please do tell what matters the date and the faction? I assume positioning and skill?

EDIT: No matter the previous edit I reread your post. So preventing them from forming doesnt count either? And why the steep conditions? Suddenly the other hordes can handle Russia all of a suden?

 

[Novacat]

All I have to say is reread my posts from the first place as I did to find my response. I am not responsible for your innability to read and understand written facts that exist through the thread. I have repeated my position in almost every post (more or less) it is only vague for you and your vain and ultimately failed attempt to forge a standing arguement against it which you are unable to do so.

Your position aside from 'improve the AI' is nonexistant, and I already addressed to you why fixing the AI is not enough.

I need not prove anything

You need to provide proof because you have proven yourself ignorant of game mechanics at each and every turn. You had no clue about overseas penalties. You have no clue how hordes work. You have no clue how non-Europeans work. So far, you have provided plenty of evidence to indicate that you really do not know what you are talking about.

I can play this game too and unlike you I always am sure of myself

Ignorance is always certain of itself. That does not make it any less ignorant. It is a sign of wisdom, not weakness, to be able to question your own beliefs.

2) Provide me with any sort of work that shows you know the mechanics of the game engine as you professed.

I already provided a screenshot of my Sweden game. Here are screenshots of my Timurids and Ming games.



Note that my Ming/Timurids games took place in 1.2 and previous versions.

EDIT: And just for your info I didnt do it before 1500 or with the above factions. Pray please do tell what matters the date and the faction? I assume positioning and skill?

Its easy to beat Russia before 1500 with Golden Horde/Kazan for two reasons...
1: Its the only time Hordes dont suck.
2: Muscovy is at its weakest point. It only gets stronger from 1444.

EDIT: No matter the previous edit I reread your post. So preventing them from forming doesnt count either? And why the steep conditions? Suddenly the other hordes can handle Russia all of a suden?

Not everyone wants to play Crimea/Golden Horde and go straight for Muscovy's throat at day one. Theres also the people who want to play India/China without worrying about the Slavic horde kicking their shit down.

 

[Pilot00]

Look at a mirror as to who is ignorant and not explaining his possitions, as to who is has weak points and doesnt have any arguements again look at the mirror, I have used even your own arguements against you at times. Your attempt to show a philosophical consept behind your failures is entertaining and I would like you to keep it up if possible.

And because you are such a cry baby heres your proof, from a Multiplayer game I had a week eralier. Consider yourself one the lucky few I dont know personally that I entertained such foolish requests.

And no you didnt adress anything, you keep bubling the same thing: Nerf Russia/Buff hordes, AI is insane to be improved.
Oh and attempting without success to demean me and my opinions while dismissing facts.

As to your ignorance/certainty comment heres my advice: Dont bet anything serious in your life, because you are so headstrong and sure of the fallacies you spew uncontrollably that you are unable to comprehent your immediate loss. It happened at least two times in this thread, dont allow it to take a toll in your real life

EDIT: Awaiting the proofs I requested, or are you afraid?

EDIT2: If you wish I can explain to you (or any other) the map, cause there are some...peculiar things.

EDIT3: Actually scratch edit 1 I dont need anything I have all the proof I require, whether you work the engine or not is quite irrelevant in this thread. So you can claimwhatever you want on this.

 

[Novacat]

Still hardly explains why you are ignorant of basic mechanics.

Wow, thats the shittiest player horde I have ever seen... your grand accomplishment in the course of 200 years was... colonize Siberia?

The only thing I cant figure out is why the Russians havent bitten chunks from you yet. Either your allied with the Russian player, or the Russian player decided they didnt care for colonization and decided to devour Lithuania instead.

And no you didnt adress anything, you keep bubling the same thing: Nerf Russia/Buff hordes, AI is insane to be improved.

...and this is why nobody agrees with you. You have, on a continuous basis, utilised nearly every logical fallacy in the book. I have repeated, over and over, that I disagrees with a vast majority of Russian nerfs and that the only Russian nerf I would even remotely consider was perhaps having Russia's lucky bonus (which does not apply to human Muscovy/Russia) delayed until 1600.

Infact, I am more on your side considering that the average consensus has been to nerf Russia.

 

[Colombo]

Please, guys, stop or thread lock.

 

[Pilot00]

Please, guys, stop or thread lock.

Maybe you want to check out who started the exchange in the first place? And who continues blatantly insulting? And take some action instead?

Still hardly explains why you are ignorant of basic mechanics.

Wow, thats the shittiest player horde I have ever seen... your grand accomplishment in the course of 200 years was... colonize Siberia?

The only thing I cant figure out is why the Russians havent bitten chunks from you yet. Either your allied with the Russian player, or the Russian player decided they didnt care for colonization and decided to devour Lithuania instead.



...and this is why nobody agrees with you. You have, on a continuous basis, utilised nearly every logical fallacy in the book. I have repeated, over and over, that I disagrees with a vast majority of Russian nerfs and that the only Russian nerf I would even remotely consider was perhaps having Russia's lucky bonus (which does not apply to human Muscovy/Russia) delayed until 1600.

Infact, I am more on your side considering that the average consensus has been to nerf Russia.

Let the public decide who will has it right or wrong.
And as to who is good or not, at least I tried it in Multiplayer, after you play the game only for 2 weeks. Do it and come back
And no he was not allied at me, he got his face smashed in three wars, he cant be as incopetent as the AI you play regularly against though

Thanks for posting in this manner, though it helps a lot people to realise who you trully are

 

[Novacat]

Maybe you want to check out who started the exchange in the first place? And who continues blatantly insulting?

He knows very well:

Pilot00: In the sea of logical fallacies and insults, I couldn't get whats your argument. Could you please explain yourself? Without fallacies and insults?

 

[Pilot00]

He knows very well:

You missed the part where you first called me ridiculus, then insane and then a shitty player without provocation.
Also I bet the original poster meant it for both of us, though I am clear on the fallacie matter since I didnt commit any.

 

[Novacat]

You missed the part where you first called me ridiculus, then insane and then a shitty player without provocation.

'Rediculous' is not an insult, 'Insane' is barely an insult at all, and both were describing your arguments, not you.

'Shitty player' comes after several pages of provocations.