Russia in Victoria 3 is bland and lifeless

[Aquae Sulis]

Yeah, plenty of ways to add flavour which aren't scripting and I think the starting political position is one that is ripe for upgrade.

It feels a bit oversimplified and the industrialists in Russia seem to have the exact same concern as the industrialists in Borneo.

 

[Al-Khalidi]

I think the lack of content for Russia is especially egregious considering the Ottomans (who were way less powerful and prominent during the time period) have substantially more gameplay flavour with all the Tanzimat journal entries (and even then they're inadequate because they only offer flavour up to like the first 20 years)

Ottomans probably have more flavor events as the Ottoman Empire was in the center of world's attention at that era and events there shaped the world (from Oriental Crysis to ww1) It's not the matter of who was more "powerful".

I think that biggest problem with russia is that when played by AI they don't have almost any population growth, each time they implode and regress instead of progressing which makes more or less historical immersion impossible.

 

[Nigerian_Prince]

Ottomans probably have more flavor events as the Ottoman Empire was in the center of world's attention at that era and events there shaped the world (from Oriental Crysis to ww1) It's not the matter of who was more "powerful".

I think that biggest problem with russia is that when played by AI they don't have almost any population growth, each time they implode and regress instead of progressing which makes more or less historical immersion impossible.

I disagree because the Sick Man of Europe events only last for 20 years or less, which is before the Crimean war, great eastern crisis etc. After that It seems as though the Ottomans have as much flavour as most other nations.

Russia was also way more active and involved in global affairs, being a massive multicontinental empire at its prime in the 1800s

 

[TempestM]

Russia in Victoria 3 is bland and lifeless

Just like any nation in the game really Except maybe US, but only before you cancel slavery

 

[Zaku]

Open-World games from Ubisoft where, yes, you do have a "large spanning sandbox where you can do what you want" but it's lifeless,

I agree a hundred percent.

If I want to go play as Japan for example, I want the game to be somewhat immersive. I want Japan to feel like Japan, and not as unreformed nation #12 with the banana shaped island being the only uniqueness in it, and with the same events and blandness to it as for example Sokoto unreformed nation #45, (a Central-African calipathe, Hulk green). They shouldn't feel the same way, but right now they do. They should have their own story and setting. The game shouldn't just tell us "Ok here this is your dude, now go and mine some rocks or something." That makes the game kinda bland, and I wish they gave a bit more flavor for at least the most popular nations in the game. Unfortunately we'll need to pull more money out of our pocket for that, or wait for mods. A bit disappointed. Not to say I don't like the game because I do, but it needed a bit more polish both in the AI, bugs, and flavor department for a full priced release imo.

 

[Al-Khalidi]

I disagree because the Sick Man of Europe events only last for 20 years or less, which is before the Crimean war, great eastern crisis etc. After that It seems as though the Ottomans have as much flavour as most other nations.

Russia was also way more active and involved in global affairs, being a massive multicontinental empire at its prime in the 1800s

Ottomans were also massive and multicontintal and events in Ottoman Empire shaped the world completely, hence the attention. I imagine fans of 15 other countries could give similar arguments as to why their favorite country should get more flavor. And all of them would probably right if the devs had additional 5 years to work on the game. This however is imo of secondary importance - they should first fix the game - flaws of warfare, balance the world etc.

 

[FluffayOne]

balance the world etc.

I'm not sure if the balance can be fixed without some sort of flavor. The time setting of Victoria is a fairly long one even if, by Paradox Standards, its only the second smallest. It's 100 years that saw dozens of wars and the first Great War, as well as massive reforms, revolutions, threats of reforms and revolutions, and the rise of nationalism. The nature of a sandbox means that you can program for the first bit of the game and make it somewhat predictable, but the more time passes by the less control you will have to easily enforce a balance which is made even more difficult by the current design decision to steer towards a more open-ended sandbox, so some other gameplay abstraction needs to be created or expand upon to help fix that. Hence why I think journals are great for it and might of been their intent, they just need more love. But I'm also biased because I believe the decision menu in HOI4 was the best thing they ever implemented in the series.

 

[Al-Khalidi]

I'm not sure if the balance can be fixed without some sort of flavor. The time setting of Victoria is a fairly long one even if, by Paradox Standards, its only the second smallest. It's 100 years that saw dozens of wars and the first Great War, as well as massive reforms, revolutions, threats of reforms and revolutions, and the rise of nationalism. The nature of a sandbox means that you can program for the first bit of the game and make it somewhat predictable, but the more time passes by the less control you will have to easily enforce a balance which is made even more difficult by the current design decision to steer towards a more open-ended sandbox, so some other gameplay abstraction needs to be created or expand upon to help fix that. Hence why I think journals are great for it and might of been their intent, they just need more love. But I'm also biased because I believe the decision menu in HOI4 was the best thing they ever implemented in the series.

Well, by balance I don't mean ww1 happening always but rather the fact that France doesn't have twice the size of russian population before the end of the game. Could journals fix it? Maybe. But the problem is deeper I think.

 

[FluffayOne]

Well, by balance I don't mean ww1 happening always but rather the fact that France doesn't have twice the size of russian population before the end of the game. Could journals fix it? Maybe. But the problem is deeper I think.

Aaaah, you meant the pure numbers bit, fair.

 

[FluffayOne]

I agree a hundred percent.

If I want to go play as Japan for example, I want the game to be somewhat immersive. I want Japan to feel like Japan, and not as unreformed nation #12 with the banana shaped island being the only uniqueness in it, and with the same events and blandness to it as for example Sokoto unreformed nation #45, (a Central-African calipathe, Hulk green). They shouldn't feel the same way, but right now they do. They should have their own story and setting. The game shouldn't just tell us "Ok here this is your dude, now go and mine some rocks or something." That makes the game kinda bland, and I wish they gave a bit more flavor for at least the most popular nations in the game. Unfortunately we'll need to pull more money out of our pocket for that, or wait for mods. A bit disappointed. Not to say I don't like the game because I do, but it needed a bit more polish both in the AI, bugs, and flavor department for a full priced release imo.

Generally speaking, I'm not against paying for DLC, assuming the DLC is objectively good and adds great value to the game and doesn't lock everything just behind the paid part so people that don't pay don't get screwed over. Common Sense in EU4 (or whichever was the one that gave us province development, it's been a long time) is an objectively good DLC to me. Waking The Tiger as well, for the expansion of generals in the paid part and the decisions in the free part as well. But I do need some bang for my buck and if you're going to charge me 20-30 bucks for it, the content it gives better be good or open massive doors for the modding community.

 

[Svenska Super]

I mean, I import wood when I play Russia as well. Why shouldn't the AI do it? I'd rather build tool factories or iron mines first, if I can import wood for cheap.

that this happens is wrong game design, the farming from subsistence should in russia naturally net more wood as such the price of wood in russia could never be above market throughout the game.

 

[Mucsaccso]

This is a historical game, so there should be a historical background to it. Otherwise they should make a fantasy game.

But even a fantasy game can be railroaded. Like if you know what events are in that fantasy game and you know how to activate them and the end result of the game is usually very similar due to the impactful events, then you have a railroaded fantasy game.

But you can also create a sandbox fantasy game if you don't have events but mechanics. Like there is a swamp between the fairy and the troll kingdom and something has to be done with it, but it's wont be a simple event like *as a fairyking, has +75 relation with the troll empress and have the tech 'citadel fire' to drain the swamp*. Instead you could decide on a fairy-troll conference what to do with the swamp. In fact, you should also have this mechanic for forests and plans as well if the conditions are given.

 

[anbory]

To be honest, all this "It's a sandbox, don't raliroad it!!!" white knight rhetoric is just a poor excuse for lack of country-related flavor. Before you'd say it's a sandbox, you should understand, that there is a historical background for every country on the map. So, for example, things like serfdom issue in Russia, Great Eastern crisis or Peking convention that were mentioned above have a very deep centuries-long historical background, you can't just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. Nobody is asking for railroaded scripts, we need flavor. It means, that you still have a freedom of choice what to do, but your certain actions are accompanied with some events, journal entries and other stuff unique to the country you are playing. So, a few flavor for Russia when you trying to abolish serfdom law or engaging in a diplomatic play with Ottomans would not railroad your playthrough but make you feel that it's really unique comparing to other countries. The current gameplay when you just waiting for a successful dice roll that would abolish serfdom for you is not a unique situation (tm), that's what literally every other country in the world has.

 

[FluffayOne]

Instead you could decide on a fairy-troll conference what to do with the swamp.

I'm not sure how to tell you this but what you've described here and what you described as a railroaded fantasy game in the first paragraph are the same thing.

Say we use the first example with the checkboxes and you click the button to drain the swamp. You get an event. The trolls get an event. Some pre-defined line of events happen from there. Then we take this example. You "call a conference" between the fairy-trolls and decide on what happens with the swamp. You decide whether to burn it down or not. The trolls decide how to react with it. It's the same events from before just presented in a different mechanical flavor than the events themselves but the end result is going to be the same. Sure, you can ignore it and not call the conference, but you can also ignore the decision and not call it in the first example.

The main difference is that one system -- the later -- homogenizes the mechanic so that it can be used in as many places at once where needed and in a sandbox environment that means not pressing the issue on the player even if it's supposed to be a major point of contention while the other -- the former -- tries to push players towards pre-defined events that are supposed to happen given the lore of the fantasy world that has been created to give it some semblance of continuity and importance instead of just being a sandbox with nothing really mattering.

 

[Surimi]

I don't understand this mindset because attempts were already made to replicate this with the Opium Wars and the Tanzimat/Sick Man of Europe journal entries for the UK and Ottomans respectively.

There are actually quite a few unique journal entries, including some surprising ones. The EIC has a couple, for example. There are also some thematic global ones like the Krakatoa eruption.

And that's kind of what I mean with a middle ground. The unique journal entries are quite simple, they typically relate to events which are predictable or inevitable based on the situation at the game start. Some are better than others, but the purpose isn't to tie events to a scripted historical narrative, it's to provide little challenges or gameplay moments which can be resolved from within the existing mechanics.

The problem is that what "flavour" typically means isn't stuff like this. It's Russia getting +20% forestry throughput because an event popped up explaining that Russia has trees in it, or scripting outcomes that are impossible from within the game's systems because those outcomes happened historically.

 

[FluffayOne]

The problem is that what "flavour" typically means isn't stuff like this. It's Russia getting +20% forestry throughput because an event popped up explaining that Russia has trees in it, or scripting outcomes that are impossible from within the game's systems because those outcomes happened historically.

But that event already exists. Just expanding logging camps in any province gives a chance percent for an event to pop-up that will give that bonus for a set number of years. Nobody, from what I've seen, asked for this. People asked for the second bit but even then with the understanding that "If you actually liberalize some, you won't deal with the 1840's revolutions" and stuff like that. The Oriental Crisis is something that happens within the game systems and other historical events can happen within those systems as well. Perry forcing Japan to open itself up can be done with Japan staying isolationist and the US controlling all of its territory which gives the US an event to select whether it wants to start a diplomatic play for that or not. The Crimean Wars can happen under this system if Russia is in a position to take advantage of the Ottomans and went down the event chain that made them try to take protector status over Balkan Christians.

Hell, with what I know of the current Oriental Crisis, the systems within the game are amazing to simulate stuff like this at its end piece because the Oriental Crisis event gives big powers in Europe the choice of having a free interest or not within the region to prepare for the Oriental Crisis. It doesn't force them to pick it, it doesn't force them to pick their historical side or even a side, it just lets nations that historically participated in a big event like that choose if they want to intervene or not depending on factors while actually making the historical event play out within the timeline as long as the underlying reasons for it to happen are met.

I may have misunderstood your post and I apologize if that's the case, but legitimately nobody has said they want their flavor to be "Give me an event where Russia gets 20% wood output because its Russia". People in this very thread have gone against the notion that starting resource availability wasn't actual flavor or even that impactful when it comes to differing starts.

 

[Svenska Super]

But that event already exists. Just expanding logging camps in any province gives a chance percent for an event to pop-up that will give that bonus for a set number of years. Nobody, from what I've seen, asked for this. People asked for the second bit but even then with the understanding that "If you actually liberalize some, you won't deal with the 1840's revolutions" and stuff like that. The Oriental Crisis is something that happens within the game systems and other historical events can happen within those systems as well. Perry forcing Japan to open itself up can be done with Japan staying isolationist and the US controlling all of its territory which gives the US an event to select whether it wants to start a diplomatic play for that or not. The Crimean Wars can happen under this system if Russia is in a position to take advantage of the Ottomans and went down the event chain that made them try to take protector status over Balkan Christians.

Hell, with what I know of the current Oriental Crisis, the systems within the game are amazing to simulate stuff like this at its end piece because the Oriental Crisis event gives big powers in Europe the choice of having a free interest or not within the region to prepare for the Oriental Crisis. It doesn't force them to pick it, it doesn't force them to pick their historical side or even a side, it just lets nations that historically participated in a big event like that choose if they want to intervene or not depending on factors while actually making the historical event play out within the timeline as long as the underlying reasons for it to happen are met.

I may have misunderstood your post and I apologize if that's the case, but legitimately nobody has said they want their flavor to be "Give me an event where Russia gets 20% wood output because its Russia". People in this very thread have gone against the notion that starting resource availability wasn't actual flavor or even that impactful when it comes to differing starts.

In vic2 somehow although much older gui and such i felt the technology system more clear and in case of logging i knew much better what to do to become a mechanical saw. This enables more noticeable scripted events for your nation instead of unfair balanced 1 or 2% buffs.
The new approach to technology should much better like in vic2 show you what else can get unlocked moving away from single things but more towards directional technology research.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

A lot of history can't be organically simulated by the core mechanics of V3. That's why V2-style country events and decisions are warranted.

 

[Vernichtere]

Yes, many events should function organically. But they don't do that because, for example, the political system is a single hole. Although the system could bring it with a few adjustments. At least with mods. Of course, the question arises as to whether people will make the effort to bridge the problems.

Something like
M.E.I.O.U. and Taxes for EU IV would work very well here.

Imperator Rome was also good as a construct. Only it was brought to a reasonably good level when it was already too late.

 

[Vernichtere]

An example of an organic solution for Russia's historical focus. One could give political agendas to the influential groups. Some dynamic, some semi-historical at the beginning. For example, one group might call for an aggressive policy toward the Turks. This agenda could possibly disappear. But this would be there at the beginning.

Dealing with the influential groups is hardly developed. We are not attacking the neighboring country because of abstract values, but because our capitalists are being pushed out of the market and are angry. Or the Turks discriminate against our fellow believers. Or we need sugar and the manufacturers want it.