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Jan 5, 2004
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Personally I find several faults with both in the Gc 1836 scenario.
Russia is underpopulated, the first census around 1890 showed that
it had a population of around 130 million. Also what about Vladivastok?
I m pretty sure It was settled & there... Also some cultures are out of wack in my mind like siberian which should be russian or altai. if altai it should be a small minority as omst of them were assimilated more or less they were like chuckha.

Prussia in my mind is extremely bad in 1.02 especially... First of all conservative empire is impossible to trigger because all the minors reform themselves to democracy so far i played about 3-4 games and in every game
Hanover turns democratic at around 1841.
The other thins is that Prussia should start with South German culture....
IT HOLDS RHINELAND damxnit. That should give it south german automaticly in my view... But also south german in desau ? and saxony? and other north german parts is simply too wierd for me.

Also Hello everyone My first Post!
 

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silverine said:
Personally I find several faults with both in the Gc 1836 scenario...

Prussia in my mind is extremely bad in 1.02 especially...

The other thins is that Prussia should start with South German culture....
IT HOLDS RHINELAND damxnit. That should give it south german automaticly in my view... But also south german in desau ? and saxony? and other north german parts is simply too wierd for me.

Also Hello everyone My first Post!

Hello.

But you would consider Prussia's government to be north german only, right? Just holding south german provences does not make it a part of the country's culture (witness Japan's occupation of Korea, for example).
 

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Hi,

Welcome to the boards!

The population of Russia in 1836 although not correct in every minority, is correct in the total population. About 65m is a good starting figure.
The province with Vladivostock does exist but in 1836 it was a very small town and Vladivostock's development was largely artificial and created by the Russian government.

I for the most part feel that the non-European parts of Russia are well represented by their cultures in the game... it is virtualy impossible to get something like this perfect. As an example, should Prussia/Germany have Jews as a state culture? I have never heard that the Jews were so mistreated that they only worked at a 50% efficiency...but giving the culture or Polish would make Prussia too strong. It is a balancing act.

The Taiga population was largely Finnic with a minority of Turks and a few stray mongols. The Turks speak the same language family that the Finnic people do (actually Turks are Finnic people) so are they the same or different? We use the terms Altai, Turcoman, and Turkish; are they different?
On the whole i feel that Paradox did a good job on the cultures.

Michael
 
Jan 5, 2004
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i kinda disagree with you

Prussias government was mostly comprised of german aristocrats be
they north/south german. Also your comparison is a bad one. A good
comparison would be the union between the 13 colonies in the new world
as half were new england and half were southerners they still were americans and did unite and as north had more of the population it had a bigger share of the government. Realisticly speaking Prussia should start with south german because it has more or less the same position. :)

P.S. I m asking for Prussia to get south german not polish at start....
I disagree with your finnic statement sibir was mostly altai native
before the Czars forced people to settle there for infractions or
otherwise.
 

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silverine said:
Prussias government was mostly comprised of german aristocrats be
they north/south german. Also your comparison is a bad one. A good
comparison would be the union between the 13 colonies in the new world
as half were new england and half were southerners they still were americans and did unite and as north had more of the population it had a bigger share of the government. Realisticly speaking Prussia should start with south german because it has more or less the same position. :)

True, it was a bad comparison. I know just enough of German history to be dangerous. But the 1836 Prussian government was a absolutist monarchy, right? With a North German (Prussian) king? The U.S. at at independance was a representative democracy, even just a confederacy at the start, and thus the Southerners had a voice in the government however small. How much of a voice did Rhinelanders have in the Prussian government in 1836? I don't know, but probably not much.
 

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In the early game period, the Prussian state recuited the vast majority of its administartors from the ranks of the established nobility. In the Rhineland, the French had gotten rid of the nobility during the revolutionary wars... so naturally the political scene in the Rhineland was dominated by the bourgeois which in turn had only very little voice in the affairs of the state.

The Rhineland was only a recent acquisition, Prussia had received it at the Vienna Conference in 1814. Also, the Rhineland was predominantly catholic, and the Prussian state was decidedly anti-catholic until the 1890's. There were many conflicts between the catholics and the Prussian state, for example at one point the Prussian authorities had the archbishop of Cologne arrested and deposed for speaking out against the marriage laws of the state.

The conflict was intensified with the formation of the Centrum Party in the 1850's (IIRC) which had as its agenda the promotion of catholic interests in Prussia, mainly in the field of education, marriage laws, freedom of speech in mass and civil rights.
 

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Karl Martell said:
In the early game period, the Prussian state recuited the vast majority of its administartors from the ranks of the established nobility. In the Rhineland, the French had gotten rid of the nobility during the revolutionary wars... so naturally the political scene in the Rhineland was dominated by the bourgeois which in turn had only very little voice in the affairs of the state.

The Rhineland was only a recent acquisition, Prussia had received it at the Vienna Conference in 1814. Also, the Rhineland was predominantly catholic, and the Prussian state was decidedly anti-catholic until the 1890's. There were many conflicts between the catholics and the Prussian state, for example at one point the Prussian authorities had the archbishop of Cologne arrested and deposed for speaking out against the marriage laws of the state.

The conflict was intensified with the formation of the Centrum Party in the 1850's (IIRC) which had as its agenda the promotion of catholic interests in Prussia, mainly in the field of education, marriage laws, freedom of speech in mass and civil rights.

Interesting. It raises my next question, though. What is supposed to be the difference between north and south Germans in Vicky? Catholic south v. Protestant north? Most of us German-Americans just see Germans as Germans...
 

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I'm also disagree on russian population in vicky, but in other aspect - how the hell russia can have most largest(iirc) pop_growth_mod = 1.014 by default ?! in gc this is, and 1.004 in 61. Of course it have a little impact on gameplay itself, because of those medical innovations, which can gave you up to *2 pop growth, still in comparison with some china or japan, which are w/o any pop growth bonuses, it looks somekinda weird... russia never had top natural population increase rate, if its simulate some other pop growing so i cant imagine any of them, as like an migration thing in game works by itself, isnt it? The balance cause is last for me, to compensate fewr russian pops on start with this growth, so thats i must say is totally not correct way of balancing, russia must have proper(bigger) population on very start, and china, who must have such growth bonuses for xure.

Of course not correct to make any comparisons with prussia pop or most of others, because...then i must say a 'bad thing' :),... the major way of population movements in russia was..errr, forced ressettlements, and not only exactly punitive, like excilements or deportations, but also just strategical.

Like redislocation of major military forces, with whom most of their families was forced to move to new place, not because of more sustainability of place, not because of better payroll or some liberty, but just move! military service in many families was just a major concept. Also as that way the russian military support and consumption works those days. Such border cities like Vladivostok was developed exactly with this way.

Or f.e the events, like situation when huge amount of workforce needed in one location, even if for a short time period. Like Novosibirsk was developed, in like capital of Siberia now. But the former place was just a construction of big and important bridge across the Ob river, the works last few years, but then when it was finished most of workers and their families stayed there, some of them saw a potential of businnes, someone just keep works on new constructions, but many just because they havent any money to move back. Later this city growth even more, became a major breakpoint of transsiberian rail construction.

The whole new cities were based on this methods, later they can growth on more independant way from only government funding, like Vladivostok with obvious profit in far eastern trade markets, sea products also, Novosibirsk as a major transport center of such huge territory like siberia...and so on

Finally i even dont speak about really bannerable issues, like real forced resettlements, but exactly that way was growth all those cold nordic absolutely unsustainable places, which brings enormous tons of natural resources for russian industry, military, world position, for budget at last (those precious_metal_mines). And they oviously was supported not only by locals(altays, adygeys hehe), but all deported prisoners, all those war captives from encounts of russian conflicts, finally highly educated and cultured political prisoners too, and there was many of them at nikolai reign... ok ok, i stop this...

So with such migration engine like in 1.02 it is impossible to simulate as censored but sadly and absolutely rightfull polit-correctly things. And hopelessly to wait for true vladivostok development or other siberian places ...

I saw resolve of this in simple back to eu concept of 'every place have its own growth rate', which gave us more confusing in balancing, i agree, but still more territorially precise and with potential, situation in population growth. It can be calculated with tons of numbers - industries, railroads, military presence, local good value, cultures, revolt risc, mainland connection, colony, maybe different workforces too,.. only few came to my mind.... sadly of course, it demand a very major recoding,...still, i wait for fresh patch, and sure it can resolve all this in some other brilliant way as always :D
 

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Prussia's government in 1836 was almost exclusively Junker aristocrats. They are most definetely NOT South Germans (whatever South Germans actually are).


silverine said:
Prussias government was mostly comprised of german aristocrats be
they north/south german. Also your comparison is a bad one. A good
comparison would be the union between the 13 colonies in the new world
as half were new england and half were southerners they still were americans and did unite and as north had more of the population it had a bigger share of the government. Realisticly speaking Prussia should start with south german because it has more or less the same position. :)

P.S. I m asking for Prussia to get south german not polish at start....
I disagree with your finnic statement sibir was mostly altai native
before the Czars forced people to settle there for infractions or
otherwise.
 
Jan 5, 2004
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well old joe

Actually Russia did have a very very insane natural population growth besides all that forced settlement of undesirables in strategic locations. The peasants
reproduced very very well an average peasant family was 12-14 kids *not kidding* and usually half survived. My fathers, father was the youngest of 12 just to illustrate a point he was one of the people who stormed Zimni *dumb dumb communist ambitions*

Basicly from 1890 to 1910 Russian pop grew by about 50 mil *courtesy of documentary on channel 13 yesterday* ""also you gotta remember that it had finland/poland/ and other slices of the world at that time. Although alaska was sold :( .

South/North germans coulda been represented better and easier by just
having 1 culture. You would have catholic germans representing south and protestants north. Realisticly speaking if Prussia never unites germany *and in 1.02 it never does usually even i failed to do it because they go democrat without even rebelling on their own, I even choze the found realms of germany in 1848 event which gives -200 prestige I get a germany but no south_german culture added....* it should still have both cultures. A better way to fix this would be to just have 1 culture instead of 2.

Also I kinda disagree with you some junker aristocrats did come from rhineland best example I could come up with is Karl Marxes wife was of a Aristocratic Noble family of junkers living somewhere there, not sure off the top of my head which city it was bonn or koln or somewhere there.
 

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Lycortas2 said:
The Taiga population was largely Finnic with a minority of Turks and a few stray mongols. The Turks speak the same language family that the Finnic people do (actually Turks are Finnic people) so are they the same or different? We use the terms Altai, Turcoman, and Turkish; are they different?

If, by the term "same language family" you mean the entire human languages as whole, then you are correct. Otherwise no. Turkish language families belong/make up the Altai language group. Finno-Ugric languages belong to the Uralic language group.
 

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Then they should probably just make the event give south german culture to germany even if it forms as a democracy.

The Vladivostock settlements could probably be handeled by giving it a high life value (the thermometer in the province screen. New york has 50% in the GC, for example.)
 

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silverine said:
Prussia in my mind is extremely bad in 1.02 especially... First of all conservative empire is impossible to trigger because all the minors reform themselves to democracy so far i played about 3-4 games and in every game
Hanover turns democratic at around 1841.
The other thins is that Prussia should start with South German culture....
IT HOLDS RHINELAND damxnit. That should give it south german automaticly in my view... But also south german in desau ? and saxony? and other north german parts is simply too wierd for me.

Also Hello everyone My first Post!

Annex those who turn democratic by war (they brake their defence pact with every german state) to trigger the conservative empire event.

I had it in my first game as Prussia because I kept all the states monarchies by force. And those who made the mistake by turning democratic I annexed.


:)
 

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JScott991 said:
Prussia's government in 1836 was almost exclusively Junker aristocrats. They are most definetely NOT South Germans (whatever South Germans actually are).

Exactly.

Perhaps I'm on a weird tangent however - adding South German to Prussia IMHO would make annexing everything too easy and desirable in game. I have the idea some minors (Saxony) are listed as Southern for this reason, and to "represent" their stance of being more or less in the Austrian camp.

I think of "South" Germans more or less being Catholic (Baden, Bavaria, Rhineland etc.) however that's just my take. :D


Speaking of Germans and Austria :D why does the Schleswig event pop-ups for Austria in 1846 AND (correctly) in 1864?? My memory may be failing, I don't remember an Austro-Danish crisis in 1846 and I get this dbl event every game as Austria. I hate it because it is a big prestige loss to turn down or DoW.
 

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Both events are correct, even for Austria, since they participated in both ones, but somehow they should get Lauenburg, since this was the spark, which caused the war of 1866.
 

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Silencer said:
Both events are correct, even for Austria, since they participated in both ones, but somehow they should get Lauenburg, since this was the spark, which caused the war of 1866.

Okay, I am sincerely interested, what was the Austro-Danish crisis and war in 1846?


I know all about the 1864 Austro-Prussian/Danish War.
 

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Väinö I said:
If, by the term "same language family" you mean the entire human languages as whole, then you are correct. Otherwise no. Turkish language families belong/make up the Altai language group. Finno-Ugric languages belong to the Uralic language group.

Quite true, save for the fact that the Altai group has many more branches which I am sure you are aware of. Manchu (in China) is also an Altai language, as is Tungusic (or whatever it is called) and generally everything else around there, including Mongol. Turkic is a branch of altai which branches further into Uzbek, Tatar and the Turkish of Turkey and some others.
 

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Hapsburg: Okay, I am sincerely interested, what was the Austro-Danish crisis and war in 1846?

http://www.um.dk/english/danmark/danmarksbog/kap6/6-8.asp

This is the one I found which was neither Danophile nor Socialist propaganda.

It was 1848, though, and was apparently tied intimately with the wave of revolutions that year; tension that had been building ever since the Danish-German experience during the Napoleonic Wars led to a boiling over in March '48, specifically a German coup in Schleswig-Holstein. The Danes smashed the Schleswig-Holsteiners, but were staggered by the intervention of Prussia. There was a truce, which the Danes broke, and which led to them doing a little better. At this point, balance of power politics led to Russia especially and Britain to a lesser degree leaning on Germany, so the status quo was maintained, with the German duchies held by the Danish dynasty (Oldenburg, I think) by agreement never to be incorporated into Denmark proper. The provisional government in Schleswig-Holstein was finally defeated in 1851.

As for the other sources, which appear on cursory inspection to be primary: Engels, who claims not to have much nationalistic feeling, describes the Prussian withdrawal with a characteristic rancor toward monarchies as "interesting as a demonstration of how Prussia, when she takes over the reins, is capable of defending Germany's honor and interests" and a guy named Gustav rants for about twenty pages about how the Germans are rapacious thugs and that Schleswig-Holstein was Danish land, citing examples from the thirteenth century up.

The upshot of this is that there should be a Russian and maybe a British event to lean on Prussia in the case of their inevitable victory. God knows I always annex Holstein and usually most of Denmark to boot, and so does the AI. From what I can tell the Danes had a breathing space which seemed to help, plus Russia--and Sweden--would have been displeased with a total victory over the Danes.

Edit: I'll go ahead and link the Engels page, which, while Sozi propaganda, is not as long or bloody unreadable as the Scandinavian fellow's.

http://csf.colorado.edu/psn/marx/Archive/1848-NRZ/nrz12.html
 

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Also, Germany was considered to respect people of the Jewish faith more so than any other nation, primairly russia and France, which were considered the major anti-semetic nations of the 19th century. But none of that means that Jews were a big enough population to make a huge contrubution to the national intrests.
 

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  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Dungeonland
  • East India Company
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
silverine said:
Realisticly speaking if Prussia never unites germany *and in 1.02 it never does usually even i failed to do it because they go democrat without even rebelling on their own,

Well the conservitive empire is ahistorical, it shouldn't happen that often, just unite them historically if you miss it.