Russia 1773 (AoR)

[unmerged(21544)]

The situation in southern Russia is quite ahistorical. This is towards the end of the Russo Turkish war. By 1771 everything was occupied by the Russians.

Some other oddities too. (Eg Kalmyk not Buddhist)

Does this count as a bug?

 

[AndrewT]

I think you are saying the Russian starting position in the 1773 scenario is incorrect. if so, I need more details. Which provinces need to be transferred from whose control to whose? If you can find a link to a map that supports your statement all the better.

Same applies to any changes of province religion. Details, and backing.

 

[unmerged(21544)]

Originally posted by AndrewT
I think you are saying the Russian starting position in the 1773 scenario is incorrect. if so, I need more details. Which provinces need to be transferred from whose control to whose? If you can find a link to a map that supports your statement all the better.

Same applies to any changes of province religion. Details, and backing.

Well, my main question if it's a bug or not. I don't recall havinga country start with 100% victory over another in any scenario (Which is the historical situation for Russia vs Crimeria in 1773) so the sitution might be set up like this intentionally.

As fot links, I'm not too fond of websites as sources. They tend to be either by natinalists of using out of copyright meterial (Hence not up to date with current research).. And citing books wouldnät help you.

But if you actually care, you can look up the relevant peace treaty: küchük kinärjä (Kuchuk Kainarji).


The kalmyk thing dosen't matter; it was intended just as an example of several small things that are wrong.

 

[AndrewT]

That's why I asked for a map rather than supporting text, they tend to be more objective.

I'm still not clear what you are saying is the actual problem. I thought you were saying Rusia started the scenario with 100% warscore over Crimea, but that's not so - they're at war but no-one is occupying anyone's territory. Are you saying you think Russia should occupy and control the provinces Crimea has, and CRI should no longer exist?

I'm keen to fix these "several small things that are wrong", but if you could at list them that'd help a lot! If you don't want to provide details.

 

[unmerged(21544)]

Originally posted by AndrewT
That's why I asked for a map rather than supporting text, they tend to be more objective.

I'm still not clear what you are saying is the actual problem. I thought you were saying Rusia started the scenario with 100% warscore over Crimea, but that's not so - they're at war but no-one is occupying anyone's territory. Are you saying you think Russia should occupy and control the provinces Crimea has, and CRI should no longer exist?

I'm keen to fix these "several small things that are wrong", but if you could at list them that'd help a lot! If you don't want to provide details.

What sort of map do you want. A modern map or historical (old) maps?

What I'm saying, dor this particualr thing, is that Crimeria and OE should own more provinces, but those as well as those they already got are controlled by Russia.

The thing is, the 'error' might be intentional. Less owned/more controlled is perhaps balanced and works better in gameplay.


As for the small things, the map is like it is. Nothign to do about that. But I think cities might be fixable? Most seems taken from a tourist map. And even then not in the right place. Some not even in the right province.

And most of them founded during Russia drive for the Black Sea. That's fine for 1773 of course. But they didn't exist for most of the game period.

An Example: Sochi, (Sochi preovince!) Is 1. A reort. 2. Located (georapically) in game province Kerch. 3. Located (Politically) in game province Kouban. 4. Russian. 5. No more than a hundred years old.


I noticed Kalmyk since it's only claim to fame is being the only buddhist place in Europe. Was so for most of the game period. (Not 1419 tho')


There is some province culture questions too, like the capital province of the strongest succesor horde (Kazan) being russian/orthodox. Despite being known as the muslim center of Russia. And called Tataristan today.

Another culture, Azeri dominates two game provinces. One have game culture turcic, the other persian. Quite funny, since the Azeri is turcic speaking persians.


Enugh whining from me.

 

[AndrewT]

Either kind of map will do, as long as it supports your statements.

Yes, citynames can be changed easily. For the whole game in province.csv, or per scenario in the scenario .inc files. No problem.

Province names won't be changed though as they are hard-coded into the map.

Province and national religions can also be changed.

I just need clear statements of what changes you propose, over what period, and some objective supporting material (either from another poster here or links to authoritative web sites).

 

[unmerged(21544)]

OK, I'm not sure what things should be changed to, I just disliked the ahistorical solutions. But I can make up ones for most of them. I'm very open to change on these.

1. Russo Turcic war.

[Maps (of History)]
http://www.bartleby.com/65/ru/RussoTur.html
http://60.1911encyclopedia.org/T/TU/TURKEY.htm
http://home.wanadoo.nl/gerard.vonhebel/1772.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1800.htm

[Encyclopedias]
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/europe/eu1770.gif
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ottoman1683_shepherd.jpg


Change to Turcic owned: Jedisan, Kaffa, Kerch, Sochi.

Change to Turcic control: Sochi.

Change to Crimeran owned: Azov, Kouban.

Change to Russian control: Kaffa, Kerch, Sochi, Crimera, Azov, Kouban, Bujak, Jedisan.

The rest as now, meaning control and ownership is often not the same.

Crimerian capital and army is a problem in light of this. The captal should be moved to crimeria province. The army might just be removed.

2. Kalmyk.

http://kalm.ru/en/religion.html
http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Kalmykian

Simply change the province to Buddhist. Since there won't be new events, I guess it's better to do so from the start, rather than have it be Muslim for all the GC.

3. Kouban cityname.

Pyatigorsk->Stavropol

Stavropol is a real city and the areas political center. And not a resort. However, both are cities from the 18th century

4. Sochi cityname.

This one is hard. No more than fishing villages here in the game period. Could use 'Abkazia' but that's a collective name.

 

[AndrewT]

OK, I've implemented your ideas 2, 3 and 4, they are reasonable and easy.

#1 I'd like some external input on, preferably someone to make those changes and test them in a real game. I just don't have time right now.

 

[unmerged(20077)]

I agree that Kazan ought to be Sunni Muslim.

 

[AndrewT]

Originally posted by The Impaler
I agree that Kazan ought to be Sunni Muslim.

OK, done that too.

 

[unmerged(21544)]

Originally posted by Zast

2. Kalmyk.

http://kalm.ru/en/religion.html
http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Kalmykian

Simply change the province to Buddhist. Since there won't be new events, I guess it's better to do so from the start, rather than have it be Muslim for all the GC.

Ah, I'm not as smart as I thought.

Golden Horde does have a suitable event. Indeed it's their only event. This could be used to change the province religon of Kalmyk, so it can be historically correct in 1419. (Muslim)

 

[unmerged(21544)]

Originally posted by The Impaler
I agree that Kazan ought to be Sunni Muslim.

Good you pointed that out. Had almost forgoten it.

It should be mongol (tatar) too.

Unfortuantly I could only find one map for this:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/russia_ethnic94.jpg

 

[AndrewT]

Originally posted by Zast
Good you pointed that out. Had almost forgoten it.

It should be mongol (tatar) too.

Unfortuantly I could only find one map for this:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/russia_ethnic94.jpg

OK, done that too, thx.

 

[unmerged(17884)]

Hostilities did not break out between USA and England until April 1775. Therefore, it might be more historical to make USA a vassal of England in 1773. If it's possible to create an event that breaks vassalage in 1775, that might be good.

 

[unmerged(9563)]

Originally posted by Zast
Well, my main question if it's a bug or not. I don't recall havinga country start with 100% victory over another in any scenario (Which is the historical situation for Russia vs Crimeria in 1773) so the sitution might be set up like this intentionally.

Spain over Granada in 1492.

 

[unmerged(16417)]

Hostilities did not break out between USA and England until April 1775. Therefore, it might be more historical to make USA a vassal of England in 1773. If it's possible to create an event that breaks vassalage in 1775, that might be good.

It has always mystified me why this scenario begins with England at war with the US, or why they didn't just make it the 1775 scenario. However, this has nothing to do with Russia's borders, so you should start a new thread.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Originally posted by Zast
Ah, I'm not as smart as I thought.

Golden Horde does have a suitable event. Indeed it's their only event. This could be used to change the province religon of Kalmyk, so it can be historically correct in 1419. (Muslim)

I think the Golden Horde event is about 2 centuries early, though, as far as the Kalmuk province's religion is concerned...

 

[Vytis]

4. Abkazia --> Abkhazia (spelling)
However maybe Sukhumi (Sukhum Kaleh on this map) would be a good choice. Short info on Sukhumi.