rules, scenarios, time [semi multi-cooperation match]

[unmerged(95723)]

Hey, its not a problem for me. I am just talking about the principle. Main thing is to keep the games going, imo. Having a good set of rules and a good GM helps prevents a lot of fighting I find.



Well of course if he applies his whole army, and UK and France were not busting up the Siegfried line, or invading Italy and the Polish ai attacked out of Warsaw against some small german group and degraded its organization and lost its "dug in" bonus. But in urban especially in Winter, it is a difficult and damaging prospect for a German player in a long terms sense, if the Polish army is mil-controlled.

If an human have had control Poland there wasn't differences. I haven't use 'bugs' to take Poland. I have only encircle it and their division cannot do anythings. Sigrfied was well defences and was impossible to attack Germany there. Italy wasn't and isn't in axis.
The only thing that an human could have done was the air superiority on Varsaw. Silver haven't built airfighters ( :wacko: )... but it wasn't so easy

 

[pedal2000]

, but no Chess players ever say, "I think the King should be able to move two squares because that interferes with my options". They could, I suppose, but that would have to be agreed to before the game. Games are basicly all about rules. The events are actually invisible rules, designed by P-dox.

Yet not all options are set perfectly. Germany can choose not to join with Austria, China can choose not to unite the front. Russia can choose to avoid Finland all together. Or, on a more normal example, the Molotov Pact is perhaps the most interesting as it provides several options for a German-Russian players to choose each with radically different gameplay.
Yet the problem with your example of Chess is more that a person playing Chess suddenly says you may only move your pieces in a specific manner. IE: The King may not move before he is in check, or the Queen can't be used for 5 turns because being able to move anywhere is OP'd. There are rules in chess, I view those as the game rules, the modifers, the things that prevent you from landing anywhere and doing anything (Planes anywhere, or whatnaught) - House rules though take the rules and make them more restrictive. See above, where the Queen cannot move for several turns. That is essentially the same as saying the USA cannot play until '41.

Fundamentally, one persons exploit is another persons fair play, so rules are important because they clarify some basic principles, and stop fighting. And you are right, you do have to expect players to be somewhat honourable in how they play. Problem is that people often have different definitions of what is fair and what is not. For example, annnexing Denmark, or Finland during the Winter War, before the capitulation event fires is something that many people learn to do in SP, and they think therefore it is fair in MP. Not everyone agrees. Some rules are so ancient that no one bothers to mention them anymore, and the 36 urban stacking limit is just such a rule designed to prevent exploits. In your case, if Poland is now AI, I don't really think it is an issue, but if it was not ai, it certainly would be.

I don't see who could complain annexing Finland would be unfair but *shrugs* For the most part people f

Most people play this game because they are interested in a WW2 simulation, and the rulesets, such Hiensen's rules, or the Aussie rules just create a fair framework for that to happen, so that people don't get caught with their pants down. If you don't want an historical simulation, but wild counterfactual history, fair enough, but these rules don't limit player freedom, anymore than the rules of checkers limit player freedom, they just define what kind of game is being played.

I disagree with your conclusion. Saying that the USSR cannot be invaded before XYZ or that the USA must wait until '41 forces the players to play a fairly historical game. Yes, the USA could tell the Allies to bite him, but not at 41. By 41 assuming all players are Equal, the USA has two options, face Germany with a German-UK puppet, or face Germany with a UK ally. If he breaks off earlier than that and goes on his own far earlier, then he can war Germany, or the UK much earlier and the entire war changes again. But by 41 his options are, Be hit by Japan and then spam Germany or go after Japan first. Not much freedom there, in my opinion.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

Well first of all there is no way that any human player should actually get sealioned. So there should be no UK-German puppet, regardless of the USA's position. The only way that this should happen is if Spain is in Axis, and/or conquered by the Axis and Gibraltar is in Axis hands. This then means that the Regia Marina can operate effectively off the coast of the UK.

Futhermore, not all rulesets make exact definitions of what date USA can enter the war. For example, the Aussie rules set, which allows for USA at start, manages the huge power imbalance by defining when the USA can join on a sliding scale. The basic point of USA war entry is set to January 1942, and then adjusted based on what is going on, in the game. So, basicly, if Germany allies Nationalist Spain, or conquers Spain then USA war entry is moved up by 6 months. Same goes for Turkey, and other ahistorical alliances.

So you see, it is flexible in this regard.

And besides the real threat of USA at start has nothing to do with when it goes to war, at all. In fact USA can win the war for Allies, without ever declaring war at all.

ETA: The thing about these annexations of Finland and Demark is not the annexation itself (bring socialism) but how the annex is done. Some rules allow "bring socialism" (MEM is basicly balanced with this option in mind). Normally in this case Soviet Union is "punished" by losing its NAP with Germany, but it is possible actually to invade Finland in such a way that the "Bring Socialism event does not fire, and Finland can be annexed anyway. This way the player undermines the vanilla events system. Same with Denmark, a German player can annex Denmark and get Greenland and Iceland, if they annex before the vanilla event that gives Greenland and Iceland to the UK.

 

[unmerged(95723)]

It' all ok for this evening? USSR team?

 

[Skarion]

On Vnet Im able to play tonight, yes.

What time was it?

 

[unmerged(95723)]

Time is 21 cet.
Ok Vnet, see you later

 

[pedal2000]

any chance we can move that forward to 20:00 or 20:30CET?

 

[Skarion]

any chance we can move that forward to 20:00 or 20:30CET?

That isnt forwards, it's backwards...

And where is everyone? Im in Vnet?

 

[unmerged(95723)]

Ok this evening there was a lot of player.. and we have done a nice game.
Next time: thursday at 21 cet.
Maybe it's a good thing that new player read rules on post number 57 in this thread.

 

[unmerged(95723)]

where is greg?? I need to speak to greg....

 

[pedal2000]

So, short update:

Germany continued it's march into France, and took it. Italy was forced into the Axis due to Spain joining the allies thanks to a UK with a human brain. This meant that Africa fell shortly as it was unguarded due to the Spanish Invasion.

Spain is holding onto Seville, and UK has Gibraltar. Both are properly garrisoned, although Italy has made no secret of the fact that it is screaming for German reinforcements. Time will tell if this holds.

The Soviets had a brief war against the Axis, and Finland, winning or peacing both.

The Japanese lost the North but won the south in China, it is still ongoing and both sides are grappingly each other. According to USA intelligence, Japan has a surprising number of infantry, likely due in part to the Manpower bug in 1.2 Arma for the AI.

Other than that, life rolls on.

 

[unmerged(95723)]

This evening 21 Cet.. remember it!

 

[Mr. G]

Skarion, will you take this? If not, I'll take it.

 

[Skarion]

Im taking it.

 

[GREG 42]

axis

This evening 21 Cet.. remember it!

Ok keep your hair on i will be there

 

[unmerged(95723)]

ehm.. are 21.07 and nobody is on the lobby!

 

[pedal2000]

dun dun duhhh!

So.

Spain fell fairly quickly. The loss of 20+ divisions seriously hurt the UK's chances to hold Gibraltar, fortunately quick reinforcements from Africa were able to reinforce the small chunk of land into a nigh-impenetrable fortress. Axis forces expect to be bogged down there for a long, long time.

Albania was taken early in the session as well, which provided an escape for the Yugoslavian army. Yugoslavia was provided an island in the Pacifics to ensure it could maintain it's army, and has avenged itself by rampaging across a seemingly undefended France. With so many Axis troops stuck in Spain, the question is how long before they can respond to this liberation of France.

In the Pacific, Japan made significant gains against the Chinese, finally destroying their last link to the outside world. While China is now only a mere delay for the Chinese, the world watches to see how long it will take for Japan to finish them off. (Japan's manpower bug has provided enough MP for it to actually outnumber China if the spies are correct)

Things do not look good for the Axis at the moment, but time will tell if the Soviets are soft, or hard bears.

 

[Henning]

So I'll be the desperate sub of the USSR team. How is everything going? If i understood it correct the Soviet Union was at war with axis but made peace?

And when is the game tonight? I can't play before around 20.00 CET. A little later would be preferable.

 

[unmerged(95723)]

So I'll be the desperate sub of the USSR team. How is everything going? If i understood it correct the Soviet Union was at war with axis but made peace?

And when is the game tonight? I can't play before around 20.00 CET. A little later would be preferable.

We will play at 21 cet.. i haven't understand your first question..

 

[pedal2000]

The lazy commie dogs of the Soviet Union are idle in their complacency. :rofl: So yes, you can look forward to another boring session I imagine Henning. AFAIK we won't reach 1941 tonight.