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Wow, yet another arguement about urban stacking limit.
Fundamentally the problem is that the game was not designed to be played in MP. It was designed and balanced as a SP game with an MP feature. This means that once people enter the picture they can exploit all the cracks in the system to throw the balance out. The game is substantially tilted toward Allies in MP, regardless if there is human France, or human USA at start. Having human USA at start really just means that the game becomes severly unbalanced 2 years later.
This is generally controlled by the introduction of rules, or game modifications. All rulesets include the Urban Stacking limit, some also say that Poland may not be military controlled. MEM locks all Polish units into place until 2 days before Danzig, in EIR Poland does not enter the allies until just before Danzig, which amounts to the same thing. Both mods have the 36 Urban stacking limit.
Filo does have a point, Germany should have been able to overun or isolate a good part of Polish Army if it was not mil controlled until Danzig. That said, 70 units in Warsaw is still a little silly so I'd have to side with SB on this one. But one thing Germany can do is spend the winter letting out small groups of Polish divisions and then isolating them and destroying them if Poland. If Poland is handled by the ai, it will oblige.
That said, rather than going through all that hassle, one could just go into the save and delete half the units in Warsaw.
Is it really that important? Isn't the issue to have a nice long game? I think the reason that people employ these controls on Allies is just so that Axis doesn't get wiped out in 1939/40. Especially annoying in the 36, since you spend three or four sessions, only to have the game end in the first session of war. It gets a little boring after the 10th time.
Either way, the game sounds like its going to be over soon, and the Axis are going down to utter humiliating defeat, yet again, so is it really worth fighting about?
Main thing is to keep the games going. Look back on this one, find a good rules set, or make up a new one.
Fundamentally the problem is that the game was not designed to be played in MP. It was designed and balanced as a SP game with an MP feature. This means that once people enter the picture they can exploit all the cracks in the system to throw the balance out. The game is substantially tilted toward Allies in MP, regardless if there is human France, or human USA at start. Having human USA at start really just means that the game becomes severly unbalanced 2 years later.
This is generally controlled by the introduction of rules, or game modifications. All rulesets include the Urban Stacking limit, some also say that Poland may not be military controlled. MEM locks all Polish units into place until 2 days before Danzig, in EIR Poland does not enter the allies until just before Danzig, which amounts to the same thing. Both mods have the 36 Urban stacking limit.
Filo does have a point, Germany should have been able to overun or isolate a good part of Polish Army if it was not mil controlled until Danzig. That said, 70 units in Warsaw is still a little silly so I'd have to side with SB on this one. But one thing Germany can do is spend the winter letting out small groups of Polish divisions and then isolating them and destroying them if Poland. If Poland is handled by the ai, it will oblige.
That said, rather than going through all that hassle, one could just go into the save and delete half the units in Warsaw.
Is it really that important? Isn't the issue to have a nice long game? I think the reason that people employ these controls on Allies is just so that Axis doesn't get wiped out in 1939/40. Especially annoying in the 36, since you spend three or four sessions, only to have the game end in the first session of war. It gets a little boring after the 10th time.
Either way, the game sounds like its going to be over soon, and the Axis are going down to utter humiliating defeat, yet again, so is it really worth fighting about?
Main thing is to keep the games going. Look back on this one, find a good rules set, or make up a new one.
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I can't understand english very well, so i don't know exactly what you have written.
Anycase:
- In this game there isn't this rule. Nobody have asked this rules. So there wasn't.
- A lot of rules destroy liberty of game. And i have seen it by silver. He has a usually way to use Germany: only factories till 39 and no army becouse he think that with 60 division can destroy Poland.
But we aren't in SP so Uk could put a lot of division in Poland and this way to play is wrong. MP is better than SP becouse every game is different by other.
- I know that USA could destroy Germany alone, without USSR's help. But if we aren't all professionists, players do the difference. I have win a game: GER-USSR-GIA-ITA versus UK-USA. And i was USA.
- If depends of me, i don't want any rules excpet someone. 60 urban division are invincible, but is not a problem. In Poland becouse in 1 mounth that division will be without supply (by airplanes), and in USSR becouse Germany can encircle them.
Maybe in USA urban is a problem, but is not a problem for us in this game.
PS: if you play a game with all professionists who play HOI-MP by 2-3 years, maybe game need a lot of rules to balance... maybe. But if Silver is a professionist.... well :rofl:
Anycase:
- In this game there isn't this rule. Nobody have asked this rules. So there wasn't.
- A lot of rules destroy liberty of game. And i have seen it by silver. He has a usually way to use Germany: only factories till 39 and no army becouse he think that with 60 division can destroy Poland.
But we aren't in SP so Uk could put a lot of division in Poland and this way to play is wrong. MP is better than SP becouse every game is different by other.
- I know that USA could destroy Germany alone, without USSR's help. But if we aren't all professionists, players do the difference. I have win a game: GER-USSR-GIA-ITA versus UK-USA. And i was USA.
- If depends of me, i don't want any rules excpet someone. 60 urban division are invincible, but is not a problem. In Poland becouse in 1 mounth that division will be without supply (by airplanes), and in USSR becouse Germany can encircle them.
Maybe in USA urban is a problem, but is not a problem for us in this game.
PS: if you play a game with all professionists who play HOI-MP by 2-3 years, maybe game need a lot of rules to balance... maybe. But if Silver is a professionist.... well :rofl:
Fillo said:
How about UK player takes a polish division to Africa and invades Tripoli with it. This will give Poland a VP, and it will not annex, until Tripoli is taken. Is this good/bad?
What if USA player makes USA Paternal Autocrat and invades Mexico and takes over South America by 1940? Is this good/bad?
What if German player encircles Moscow, but does not capture it, so the Soviet Army is cut off from supply and starves? Is this good/bad?
What if Soviet Union invades Romania in 1936? Is this good/bad?
Its cool.
Good rules actually increase player freedom. That is the point I guess. You should be able to play HOI in MP, but the game was not designed for that. To many holes for people to find.
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Fillo said:
I thought we weren't playing this week?
I can't play myself, asking if someone else can sub me.
Cueball said:How about UK player takes a polish division to Africa and invades Tripoli with it. This will give Poland a VP, and it will not annex, until Tripoli is taken. Is this good/bad?
What if USA player makes USA Paternal Autocrat and invades Mexico and takes over South America by 1940? Is this good/bad?
What if German player encircles Moscow, but does not capture it, so the Soviet Army is cut off from supply and starves? Is this good/bad?
What if Soviet Union invades Romania in 1936? Is this good/bad?
Its cool.
Good rules actually increase player freedom. That is the point I guess. You should be able to play HOI in MP, but the game was not designed for that. To many holes for people to find.
There are a lot of sploits, no one is denying that. But generally speaking I'd prefer to leave it up to people to not abuse them first, before placing rules banning them outright.
My other group's rules were updated to include that supply encirclement.
But as for the invasion of Romania in 36; I don't get that one. So what? He pays the piper for it, isn't it GoI by several countries? Plus a 5% NAP cancellation fee, and even better (IMO) if the USA goes on a rampage. It is different, new, exciting. It forces people to adapt. In one of our previous games the USA went communist and because a fourth world power, rampaging and taking out British and Japanese colonies alike. Unfortunately he didn't cover his homeland and found himself falling to the combined landings of Japan and the UK. Who then proceeded to duke it out in North America.
Skarion said:
Skar, skar skar... how am I suppose to maintain morale if all I keep getting are non-Skar USSRs?!?!
pedal2000 said:
Not my fault it's not exactly the best time around for me to be playing these weeks.
I got work, party and then going to go home meeting my parents (making sure I don't have any internetconnection on 2 weeks in a row).
And it seems the USSR team may not anticipate tonight as of general confusion.
Skairon we could play this evening with AI to URSS. Is it a big problem for you?Skarion said:Not my fault it's not exactly the best time around for me to be playing these weeks.
I got work, party and then going to go home meeting my parents (making sure I don't have any internetconnection on 2 weeks in a row).
And it seems the USSR team may not anticipate tonight as of general confusion.
Fillo said:
Not for me. Two days without human player and the last player being a utter nub^2 is making sure that Germany got a chance to say the least. If the USSR dont get steamrolled I'd laugh.
We have done only 3 mounth until 10/1/40.Skarion said:Not for me. Two days without human player and the last player being a utter nub^2 is making sure that Germany got a chance to say the least. If the USSR dont get steamrolled I'd laugh.
I hope germany is save now. We will play monday again... but we have lost isd.... this evening we was only 3
ps: URSS ai have declar war to italy :rofl:
pedal2000 said:
Well, it may not be a sure fire win in the grand scale of things for USSR, but this manouver is a sure fire loss for Germany because the Balkan Clusterfuck that happens screws Germany's potential for alliances, and does nasty things like prevents Anschlaus from happening, If Austria is at war. So all you have done is skipped World War II basicly. If you want to fuck the German entirely in 1937, all Russia has to do it DOW Austria. Doesn't even have to DOW anything else. Russia gets the war bonus, and Austria never joins Germany.
And this NAP that SU has with Romania is basicly a "rule." Its a rule designed into the game by the programmers to make the game conform to some kind of historical gamepath. Russia igets a slap on the wrist for following an a-historical path. Anchlaus is a rule (it is the Germany gets Austria rule), so is Munich (it is the Germany gets Suddenland rule), so is "England Guarantees the indpendence of Poland", so is China "Forges the United Front." The game is filled with these kinds of built in rules that guide the game in a historical direction.
Everyone accepts these rules because they are built into the game, basicly, but no Chess players ever say, "I think the King should be able to move two squares because that increases my options". They could, I suppose, but that would have to be agreed to before the game. Games are basicly all about rules. The events are actually invisible rules, designed by P-dox.
Fundamentally, one persons exploit is another persons fair play, so rules are important because they clarify some basic principles, and stop fighting. And you are right, you do have to expect players to be somewhat honourable in how they play. Problem is that people often have different definitions of what is fair and what is not. For example, annnexing Denmark, or Finland during the Winter War, before the capitulation event fires is something that many people learn to do in SP, and they think therefore it is fair in MP. Not everyone agrees. Some rules are so ancient that no one bothers to mention them anymore, and the 36 urban stacking limit is just such a rule designed to prevent exploits. In your case, if Poland is now AI, I don't really think it is an issue, but if it was not ai, it certainly would be.
Most people play this game because they are interested in a WW2 simulation, and the rulesets, such Hiensen's rules, or the Aussie rules just create a fair framework for that to happen, so that people don't get caught with their pants down. If you don't want an historical simulation, but wild counterfactual history, fair enough, but these rules don't limit player freedom, anymore than the rules of checkers limit player freedom, they just define what kind of game is being played.
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So; update
Italy has invaded Spain, due to the lack of a Human at UK there was no alliance meaning Italy is so far unscathed; but a quick swap by myself saved Gibraltar for at least a session.
Germany took Poland's capital, I didn't see Poland break out at all so I assume he cracked the 70 divisions, as I thought he would. Voila All our debate was for naught.
On Jan 10th 1940 France and Spain are both about half done, France is more like 90% since Vichy should fire relatively soon.
For the USSR - You're at war with Italy because of their declaration on Republican Spain. Lithuania and Estonia are annexed, Latvia still lives. Or maybe I am mixing those up, either way you own the top two. Finland war has been going very poorly because of the AI trying to 'fight' Italy and spread it's troops out - this means there has been no progress and at my insistence we stopped before the end event fires so that you may figure out what you want to do with that.
Japan's still wading through China, I think they're half done by now. Probably mostly thanks to the Manpower bug in 1.2 Arma VLBV but oh well.
and the USA is a peace loving nation that no one should pay any attention too at all.
Italy has invaded Spain, due to the lack of a Human at UK there was no alliance meaning Italy is so far unscathed; but a quick swap by myself saved Gibraltar for at least a session.
Germany took Poland's capital, I didn't see Poland break out at all so I assume he cracked the 70 divisions, as I thought he would. Voila
All our debate was for naught.On Jan 10th 1940 France and Spain are both about half done, France is more like 90% since Vichy should fire relatively soon.
For the USSR - You're at war with Italy because of their declaration on Republican Spain. Lithuania and Estonia are annexed, Latvia still lives. Or maybe I am mixing those up, either way you own the top two. Finland war has been going very poorly because of the AI trying to 'fight' Italy and spread it's troops out - this means there has been no progress and at my insistence we stopped before the end event fires so that you may figure out what you want to do with that.
Japan's still wading through China, I think they're half done by now. Probably mostly thanks to the Manpower bug in 1.2 Arma VLBV but oh well.
and the USA is a peace loving nation that no one should pay any attention too at all.
damn english.. why don't you speak in italian? :rofl:
Anycase i don't understand where is the problem.... Some rule are necessary if people want an historical game, other rules are necessary if people want a balanced game. We have put any rules to do an historical game (but maybe not a lot of rules to balance).
All of us have accepted that rules.
36 infantry is not a foundamental rules. This evening i have destroy Poland in 20 days. I have encircle Varsaw and take all other poland territories so Poland had 0/0PI. Where is the problem? Maybe 20/30 days more than in SP, but Germany can survive yet.
We are looking for a very good player to use Germany and save her by all bad forecasts.
And if is possible an Uk player too...
If nobody want use Germany, i will use Germany and another italian will use Italy. So you will see who let's do difference... players and not rules
Anycase i don't understand where is the problem.... Some rule are necessary if people want an historical game, other rules are necessary if people want a balanced game. We have put any rules to do an historical game (but maybe not a lot of rules to balance).
All of us have accepted that rules.
36 infantry is not a foundamental rules. This evening i have destroy Poland in 20 days. I have encircle Varsaw and take all other poland territories so Poland had 0/0PI. Where is the problem? Maybe 20/30 days more than in SP, but Germany can survive yet.
We are looking for a very good player to use Germany and save her by all bad forecasts.
And if is possible an Uk player too...
If nobody want use Germany, i will use Germany and another italian will use Italy. So you will see who let's do difference... players and not rules
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Hey, its not a problem for me. I am just talking about the principle. Main thing is to keep the games going, imo. Having a good set of rules and a good GM helps prevents a lot of fighting I find.
Well of course if he applies his whole army, and UK and France were not busting up the Siegfried line, or invading Italy and the Polish ai attacked out of Warsaw against some small german group and degraded its organization and lost its "dug in" bonus. But in urban especially in Winter, it is a difficult and damaging prospect for a German player in a long terms sense, if the Polish army is mil-controlled.
pedal2000 said:So; update
Germany took Poland's capital, I didn't see Poland break out at all so I assume he cracked the 70 divisions, as I thought he would. Voila
Well of course if he applies his whole army, and UK and France were not busting up the Siegfried line, or invading Italy and the Polish ai attacked out of Warsaw against some small german group and degraded its organization and lost its "dug in" bonus. But in urban especially in Winter, it is a difficult and damaging prospect for a German player in a long terms sense, if the Polish army is mil-controlled.