Ruler customization is really disappointing

[Nerisande]

I've made a quick look into the dev stream.
At first, I should say that Galactic Paragons will be really exciting expansion. New council mechanics, unique council positions from every civics - all of this is looking very good.

But the customization of the leader feels kinda... unfinished or over-simplified.

1. Only one trait point. Maybe it can be increased by taking some civics or something else, but anyway it gives not so much space for creativity.
2. An addition to the first statement - you can't even take negative traits for more points.
3. The pool of available traits is really limited. I've spotted not so much valuable choices. There are some decent options like Charismatic (+15 edict fund -10% edict upkeep), Spark of Genius (+3% research speed) or Principled (+2 stability). If you are doing early corvette rush - probably you can consider taking +5% ship damage trait instead.
4. The most valuable leader traits are just absent. Architectural Sense (-10% building/district cost), Space Miner (-25% mining station cost), Expansionist (-15% starbase influence cost). I'm happy every time I see these traits randomized on my starting ruler... And none of them can't be chosen in the Empire Creation tab as a starting option.

I bet right after 3.8 release the workshop will be flooded with mods, expanding this system. And I really wish the ruler customization will be expanded in some of the next updates.

But enough for complaint, the next update seems to be really cool, I'm waiting for it.

 

[Bitzo]

4. The most valuable leader traits are just absent. Architectural Sense (-10% building/district cost), Space Miner (-25% mining station cost), Expansionist (-15% starbase influence cost). I'm happy every time I see these traits randomized on my starting ruler... And none of them can't be chosen in the Empire Creation tab as a starting option.

Can Rulers at least still randomly start with these on top of the one selected trait or has the customization done away with that by only giving you the one (borderline) useless trait you chose?

 

[Metallichydra]

Expansionist

Really weird that the first ruler you start with, literally the ruler that starts a new era, about expanding your empire into space, cannot be interrested in expanding into space.
Like, imagine sending the first man into space, and just be like "Yeah, space is cool and all, but have you heard about FaRmInG?!"

 

[Abdulijubjub]

I feel like it's worth noting that the traits are so weak because they're all the level 1 version. You can take them repeatedly to increase their effects, and (I think) you get the option to do so every level.

They don't seem particularly well balanced, though. +2 stability (+1.2% to all jobs) seems like it's always better than +2.5% minerals from jobs, for instance. Charismatic is potentially extremely powerful. And the Spycraft one is, of course, useless.

Architectural Sense and Expansionist seem to be selectable at level 4, 5, after you get the veteran bonus that makes you more focused on the council.

After watching more of the stream: there are an enormous number of flat bonuses in high level traits. Ex. There's a destiny trait pick which gives your empire +30 research of each type (aka 2 researcher pops), which competes with +.1 research per pop in the entire empire as an alternative. How could you possibly have fewer than 300 pops by the time you have level 8 leaders?

And then there are traditions like -2% empire size per governor. They know we can just... hire 30 governors and power through the soft cap, right? There's also a -20% empire size ruler trait to stack with it.

I'm sorta confused by these features. The systems seem very cool, but the things they did with them seem very unbalanced.

 

[Nerisande]

Can Rulers at least still randomly start with these on top of the one selected trait or has the customization done away with that by only giving you the one (borderline) useless trait you chose?

These traits are not gone away, but as I understood - all traits doing something special will be considered as "veteran traits", so you can get them only when your leader reaches lvl 5.
Veteran traits are really cool, but not the common traits you can pick in redactor, they are bland, boring and doing not so much.
I understand why you can't pick a veteran trait from the start, because they are bound to leader Veteran Class. And I guess the ability to pick your starting trait was developed after the complete trait rework, so the first trait is weak and boring because all interesting stuff is designed to appear only on high level and it was just too late to change something.

It is a wasted opportunity to add an aditional layer for shaping your empire and experimenting with builds, choosing different ruler traits, which can make an impact comparable with your civics choice. But currently this choice is really not so relevant.
In this case there must be an additional trait type for the first trait, similar to veteran ones, which represents your character's history, his nature and way of life. This would make the choice made in redator valuable since the veteran traits are designed not to appear before choosing a sub-class and can't be used as a starting option.

 

[DanielPrates]

I've made a quick look into the dev stream.
At first, I should say that Galactic Paragons will be really exciting expansion. New council mechanics, unique council positions from every civics - all of this is looking very good.

But the customization of the leader feels kinda... unfinished or over-simplified.

1. Only one trait point. Maybe it can be increased by taking some civics or something else, but anyway it gives not so much space for creativity.
2. An addition to the first statement - you can't even take negative traits for more points.
3. The pool of available traits is really limited. I've spotted not so much valuable choices. There are some decent options like Charismatic (+15 edict fund -10% edict upkeep), Spark of Genius (+3% research speed) or Principled (+2 stability). If you are doing early corvette rush - probably you can consider taking +5% ship damage trait instead.
4. The most valuable leader traits are just absent. Architectural Sense (-10% building/district cost), Space Miner (-25% mining station cost), Expansionist (-15% starbase influence cost). I'm happy every time I see these traits randomized on my starting ruler... And none of them can't be chosen in the Empire Creation tab as a starting option.

I bet right after 3.8 release the workshop will be flooded with mods, expanding this system. And I really wish the ruler customization will be expanded in some of the next updates.

But enough for complaint, the next update seems to be really cool, I'm waiting for it.

Agreed.

The new mechanic, as often, hints as something great but falls short of being so, maybe because of the rest of the game not supporting too much greatness.

EU4 kings for instance. The simplest of mechanics: they are either good or bad at three things ("mana"), plus some nationwide traits. And still.... when you get a good king you go for the kill, and when he unexpectedly dies and his imbecile son inherits you have to actually brace for the deluge.

It would be somewhat easy to achieve something similar here, but it is like the rest of the game doesnt support it. Too bad.

Also.... did I get it right that the new unique, once in a lifetime leaders, are just a dozen or so previously scripted guys? Two per ethic or something like that? That feels as another wasted opportunity at a great mechanic.

 

[Nerisande]

Also Expansionist being a veteran trait is kinda meh, this trait is valuable (extremely valuable) only for first 10-30 years (depends on the galaxy size and number of empires), but you can get in only when you probably don't need it anymore. But it is a perfect candidate for a starting trait.

 

[Nerisande]

And then there are traditions like -2% empire size per governor. They know we can just... hire 30 governors and power through the soft cap, right?

There is a leader limit and PDS promised that breaching this limit will be quite painful.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

There is a leader limit and PDS promised that breaching this limit will be quite painful.

The penalties are listed as increased upkeep and reduced experience.

Their leader upkeep is on the order of 2-20 unity per leader. Even if they go with starbase scaling (+25% upkeep per leader over the cap), 40 leaders (32 over the max of 8), even with all max level leaders costing 20 unity each, will be only 7200 unity. I'm spending more than that just on Ambitions (in my current save), and if those 40 governors reduced my empire size by 80%, I would probably actually *save* unity.

Even if I never level up a leader again, 80-90% empire size reduction will make it worth it.

But in reality, they won't be level 10 because of the xp penalties. 40 level 1 governors will cost 720, with that scaling rate.

They could do some kind of exponential scaling. But their existing soft cap scalings (starbases and fleet capacity) are both quadratic, with the starbases being the more punishing of the two.

 

[Ex Mudder]

I agree that "choose your leader trait at game start" is much weaker than I had hoped. I'd rather see your starting leader be high enough level that you can choose the veteran class at game start. That gives you a lot more options, including picking a leader you want to lose the first democratic election so you can move them somewhere else, and being happy with your dictator or imperial ruler. I am also concerned about ruler XP gain, as they will not benefit from having a second job.

 

[Metallichydra]

Also.... did I get it right that the new unique, once in a lifetime leaders, are just a dozen or so previously scripted guys? Two per ethic or something like that? That feels as another wasted opportunity at a great mechanic.

There's 4 new unique leaders, all of which are completely new
Then there's 2 for each ethic, all of which are completely new
Then there's the previous scripted guys who are now just a bit more special than before

At least that's how I understood it.

 

[Nerisande]

Ah, after reading the new DD I've got it. Fully operational ruler customization is kinda locked for only one origin.

A bit weird decision, isn't it?
Imagine if the starting species trait limit is set to 1 point and can be expanded only by Overtuned origin. The ability to pick negative traits is also exclusive Overtuned feature. That is exactly how the ruler customization feels now.

 

[Nevars]

They don't seem particularly well balanced, though. +2 stability (+1.2% to all jobs) seems like it's always better than +2.5% minerals from jobs, for instance.

Well there are situation that more stab isn't useful such as already cap stab but it's so situational that I think it isn't much relevant.

 

[Echo Candor One]

Really weird that the first ruler you start with, literally the ruler that starts a new era, about expanding your empire into space, cannot be interrested in expanding into space.
Like, imagine sending the first man into space, and just be like "Yeah, space is cool and all, but have you heard about FaRmInG?!"

It's not weird to me. Imagine being any modern world leader, worried about your national economy, your local enemies, and all the things the dominate headlines today. Meanwhile, 300 physicists and 20 engineers work out how to put a ship to the edge of the solar system in under a day. Then in a year, they've got a solar station, the capacity for mining stations, and these guys are champing at the bit to do the same thing in Sirius. But you're still Joe Biden. You're still worried about Russia and China. You're still worried about unemployment in Appalachia. None of this expansive possibility is baked into your platform, or into your understanding of the realpolitik. Sure, you'll exploit it - but you won't do so with any sort of intuitive understanding, or with a particularly savvy edge.

The person after you, however, will have the advantage of watching all of your mistakes.

 

[SirBlackAxe]

Well there are situation that more stab isn't useful such as already cap stab but it's so situational that I think it isn't much relevant.

Especially not on your starting ruler before you start stacking modifiers.

 

[Metallichydra]

It's not weird to me. Imagine being any modern world leader, worried about your national economy, your local enemies, and all the things the dominate headlines today. Meanwhile, 300 physicists and 20 engineers work out how to put a ship to the edge of the solar system in under a day. Then in a year, they've got a solar station, the capacity for mining stations, and these guys are champing at the bit to do the same thing in Sirius. But you're still Joe Biden. You're still worried about Russia and China. You're still worried about unemployment in Appalachia. None of this expansive possibility is baked into your platform, or into your understanding of the realpolitik. Sure, you'll exploit it - but you won't do so with any sort of intuitive understanding, or with a particularly savvy edge.

The person after you, however, will have the advantage of watching all of your mistakes.

I mean, that would be the case if it wasn't because the whole planet is unified before the invention of the hyperdrive. I think the only way to not be unified at the start is to play fear of the dark.

 

[AdmiralTails]

The intent here seems to be just to let you pick a trait on your starting ruler, instead of having one randomly assigned like it used to be, not to make your starting ruler more powerful then every leader that will come after them, which is what would happen if you had the ability to pick more traits: they would be a level 1 leader with more than one trait, while every other leader for the rest of the game would only have 1 trait at level 1 (leaving the aptitude tradition tree out of this).

The rest of the system, with the trait points and all, was made for the Under One Rule Origin, where your starting ruler *is* supposed to be more powerful than a normal leader.

 

[A2ch0n]

decent options

I guess we have different opinions in case of the most valuable traits. Carismatic and spark of genius are really good ones imo because they stay valuable until the end of the game and especially charismatic is an auto pick for me. What i miss for a start option is deep connection.

Things like expansionist are really good too, granted, but only in the early game. If you plan to change your ruler on a regular basis (Democracy, Oligachy) this is of course more interesting but not if you plan the long term and with a permanent ruler.

Now the trick to it, expansionist, deep connection and xenolinguist are shown in the stream too for level ups, starting at lv2. If you take at least one civic with trait enhancement you can most likely pick it directly at the start too but not in the custom screen. And even if you don't take a civic for this is a level up quickly done given that council members gain passive xp.

 

[Metallichydra]

If the problem is they are too good, maybe they could just make a weaker version of the traits, with a similar name, but they would only be available to the starting ruler?

Examples:
Expansionist (-15% outpost cost) --> Eager Expansionist (-5% outpost cost)
Space miner (+10% minerals from stations, -25% mining station cost) --> Space mine supporter (+5% minerals from stations, -10% mining station cost)

And then they could maybe just upgrade directly into tier II of the normal trait, so your ruler won't have these mini-traits after 40 years.

 

[A2ch0n]

make a weaker version of the traits

All traits do start with a weaker version from now on and are tiered in 3 levels, except special traits like destinys.