RoP, the White, Blue and Green version

[TheExecuter]

I'd be intrigued to see the results of your playout...even in a reduced information format. Something like, we cowered in fear while Freddy overran Bohemia, winter destroyed the Russians and we lost Konigsberg, and the French are desperately holding the line...

Then Freddy at the gates of Vienna...etc.

It would be interesting to see how far the game will go before it declares Prussia the winner. Conversely, it would be interesting to see Freddy, et al try to manage a substantial siege offensive in enemy territory. You may still be able to fight this to a draw over the long term...

 

[loki100]

bit of general feedback ... I've decided to keep this going at least for 1760 (unless I do actually lose before then which could happen). My primary goal was to use the AAR to explore the game mechanics and offer it as a learning experience to anyone else making the shift from Paradox's approach to AGEOD.

Also there are things I want to work out such as how best to manage the Russian army in this game and so on

add to that, losing is actually rather fun

so ...

Erm... I'm thinking very hard of something positive to say... This is rather a turn for the worse. To paraphrase your Queen, it's been an annus horribilis.

Ooh, speaking of the Queen, there's your silver lining: at least the Royal wedding is over!

Personally, I'd like to see you continue, at least to confirm your dire medium-term predictions, but seeing how the game system works, I don't think it would be any fun. You appear to have reached a point of no return with the lose battles/lose NM/lose more battles due to low NM feedback loop.

Well, your NM will surely kill your ambitions. I can't see how you could recover it.

I think I agree, its the NM situation that will undo me, unless I can engineer some very good odds and pick off isolated units to see if it comes back up to the 80s (which at the start of 1759 I saw as disastrous)

Oh and your problems with taking Kolberg probably stem from its fortress general which is a siege defender IIRC.

which is handy to know as I'll use that to my advantage in building up Prag as an obstacle to the Prussians ....

Oh boy. That are some bad news.

Maybe it could help, in future games, if you put more than one 2-Star-Leader in Stacks that conduct offensive actions, so that you can hope that at least one is activated the next turn (leader activity is checked seperately for each leader: You have to seperate them from the stack to see if they are really active). It wouldn't have changed anything in Dippoldiswalde, though.

It's unlucky that your troops fled in the arms of another prussian army. One can probably solve those issues if one builds a depot in a region where you want to flee, as the engine considers it wise to flee in the direction of a structure. (Maybe it didn't help you, because the engine also favors the region, where your troops come from very much: The values are the following:



Another good move could be to move the main part of those Cossacks to the west as fast as possible, to solve the supply issues in the east. (Which were a historical reason, why the russians had to abandon their campaign several times, by the way.)

Even if I would like you to have more luck with your operations, it's great that the AI is capable to win the game even against a player that doesn't make big mistakes.

thanks for all that, again hugely informative. In truth, after the mistake I made in moving the Swedes at all and all the French and Russians I lost to needless attrition, I don't actually deserve to do anything but lose ... or at best aim for a stalemate.

Really quite horrendously bad luck. As you've shown, the NM cycle seems impossible to break. I cannot truly see any way out, well not any successful way out of this but like Stuyvesant has stated, if you can continue at all, I'd appreciate that. I often find the most fascinating AARs are not world conquests but honest games which can be tales of woe. Whether you go on or not, and I rather hope you can, this AAR has certainly been a great read nonetheless.

well I'll lay my woes out for you ... but I do agree a disaster can be fun to read, especially as, in this case, its a bit dynamic rather than the cycle you can get into in say rome of the the same sequence repeated every 5 years ..

I'd be intrigued to see the results of your playout...even in a reduced information format. Something like, we cowered in fear while Freddy overran Bohemia, winter destroyed the Russians and we lost Konigsberg, and the French are desperately holding the line...

Then Freddy at the gates of Vienna...etc.

It would be interesting to see how far the game will go before it declares Prussia the winner. Conversely, it would be interesting to see Freddy, et al try to manage a substantial siege offensive in enemy territory. You may still be able to fight this to a draw over the long term...

I'll keep to my current format, it suits the time slots I have to play in and seems to produce posts with just about the right level of detail.

My hope, if I have one, is that the Prussians lose the plot in a sequence of sieges and I can repeat the trick I just pulled at Prag (which got lost in the general disaster) where I've actually destroyed a complete Prussian corps which had got isolated

 

[loki100]

Could be worse you know: November-December 1759

Well after those disasters, its a case of damage limitation.

With the Russians I'll fall back to Danzig and hope that generates enough supply but leave one corps with the siege guns to prosecute the siege (I think I can just about supply this)



With the French, I'll pull back the Army of France from its rampage but leave a 4 battalion garrison at Munster to give Cumberland a bit of a problem. In the meantime a cavalry brigade is grabbing a number of Prussian supply wagons – this should also limit Cumberland's options



so at the end, I get whacked a few more times around Lobositz and Dippoldiswalde but it seems as if Daun's corp may actually escape with some stength



Over on the Rhine, it seems as if Cumberland has split his forces up. My hope is he goes to try and take too much and I can either ambush something or he makes little progress till the Spring.



... and I get a little but lucky with the Russians as winter lifts for a short while, this will help me to reach Danzig before the supply situation collapses



So thats where von Zastrow was off to, he managed to catch a small force (I think one of their supply wagons I'd earlier captured) but I reckon this might be a good chance to get the upper hand on the Rhine



so all of sudden the Russian siege machine roars into life just as (a) winter sets in and (b) they want paying ...



At least Daun has escaped the ping-pong process and most the remaining Austrian-Bavarian army is now at Prag. It looks like Freddie is off back to Saxony for the winter



So in an attempt to end on some sort of high point I set up a trap for that Hannoverian corps at Dusseldorf ... I think I have enough units in the region to offset the NM malus



and as France is the new hope, I allocate my increasing scarce engagement points (EPs - remember I lose these as the game mechanics restore a little of my NM) to them for reinforcements



and despite being cold, hungry and unpaid the Russians are really getting stuck in ... I think they like fighting Germans in winter?



So Daun escapes, with actually quite a lot intact, so back to Prag to recover and reinforce, then I'll organise the Austrian army for the next campaigning season



as can be imagined the NM situation remains dire, but I'm still not doing too bad in actual combat losses so the Prussians must be suffering a bit



This was a bit of an opportunist action but I had to make at least one attempt



and my initial probes at Dusseldorf weren't a stunning success but I now have a lot of units ready for next term (assuming no unplanned snoozes), and the Hannoverians must have burnt off some of their ammunition reserves.



so, even more Swedes would like to join in ... and I found the comment about failing to win a bit unnecessary ...



So, I now think:

a) I may be able to gain the advantage on the Rhine, with some care I can chop up Cumberland's forces and then go on a gentle wander into Hannover and up to Bremen (to stop those British reinforcements);
b) despite my fears, I do still have a Russian army (if somewhat reduced), so Kollberg is still a valid target or the Prussians have to send something to that sector to defend it
c) Austria, here I'll organise the Army into two blocks. I'll send all the most damaged brigades and most likely to go inert leaders back to Wien. Then beef up the garrisons at Prag and Koenigratz (not least with leaders with the 'fort defender' trait as I have two of these). The rest of the army will then try to avoid combat with the main Prussian force. With luck two big well defended fortresses will take some time to reduce and in the meantime I may be able to muck up their supply lines (I still have a lot of Hussars) or to catch an isolated force.

... 1760 here we come

 

[Stuyvesant]

That was a surprisingly upbeat update! Either things weren't too bad, or you've appropriately lowered your expectations, or you're the kind of optimistic go-getter who would make Oprah Winfrey proud.

Not too bad, at all. As long as you don't have to do any fighting, you might yet salvage something from this war.

 

[Stoertebecker]

Great that you keep your good work up!

With the French, I'll pull back the Army of France from its rampage but leave a 4 battalion garrison at Munster to give Cumberland a bit of a problem. In the meantime a cavalry brigade is grabbing a number of Prussian supply wagons – this should also limit Cumberland's options

I'm not sure, if it's wise to 4 battailons inside a town to defend it: It will not help a fortress to resist longer. Okay: you have more troops to fight when the Prussians assault, but usually AI (and also human opponents) use big corps for sieges, so that all troops inside are usually doomed: Making you lose morale and victory points.

So, my advise would be to keep your fighting army as large as possible, don't detach troops to defend cities.

 

[loki100]

That was a surprisingly upbeat update! Either things weren't too bad, or you've appropriately lowered your expectations, or you're the kind of optimistic go-getter who would make Oprah Winfrey proud.

Not too bad, at all. As long as you don't have to do any fighting, you might yet salvage something from this war.

yep I could actually do with this winter never ending, so that Freddie can't get stuck back into the Austrians

Great that you keep your good work up!


I'm not sure, if it's wise to 4 battailons inside a town to defend it: It will not help a fortress to resist longer. Okay: you have more troops to fight when the Prussians assault, but usually AI (and also human opponents) use big corps for sieges, so that all troops inside are usually doomed: Making you lose morale and victory points.

So, my advise would be to keep your fighting army as large as possible, don't detach troops to defend cities.

thanks for that advice, it does make sense as I've only failed in one assault so usually by the time you breach the walls thats it ... when I did this (in early feb), I had a rather nice surprise as well

 

[loki100]

The French try to win the war: Jan-Feb 1760

In this post, I'm just going to concentrate on the Rhine. In effect most of the Russians and Austrians are staying huddled up for winter, so its up to France to carry the alliance to victory ...

slowly



after the defeats at the end of December, my active corps are quite battered in terms of organisation so I decide to let them recover for one turn



By late jan those reinforcements I ordered a few turns back are available ... 3 brigades are very welcome



and most of the current army is ready





now that is sooo much nicer to see



and the NM gain is very welcome too

Even better, I can do it again in early Feb too:





which I do



less gain to my NM but thats around 25,000 of the Prussian-British force on the Rhine taken out



Now this looks interesting ... since I now want a battle with Cumberland anyway, I move the vast bulk of the French army back to Koblenz, if I can gobble up this corp as well thats a real bonus

and I order the Brigade I'd left at Munster back to Wesel, with the 3 new brigades, that'll make a nice new Corps



even better it ran into a small part of the Hannoverian army running away and I capture another supply train and 2 batteries

So, end of winter (probably) and ...



... note to self, things can change quickly in this game

 

[Stuyvesant]

Well played, good sir, well played!

I'm impressed with your successes, given the drubbing you just recently received. Of course, you pull off your most stunning achievements whenever Freddie is lurking somewhere under the surface... But, taking things on their own, you were more successful in the Rhineland than I would have believed possible.

 

[Narwhal]

Sounds nice ! Patience pays off.

But in 1760, the Prussian player will receive massive English reinforcements (20K men), so you might want to strike quickly !

 

[Stoertebecker]

Sounds nice ! Patience pays off.

But in 1760, the Prussian player will receive massive English reinforcements (20K men), so you might want to strike quickly !

Hey, you should post something in your own thread!

But yes, now the situation seems to be under control again. 120:80 is still not good, but one can win battles.

Great updates!

 

[loki100]

Well played, good sir, well played!

I'm impressed with your successes, given the drubbing you just recently received. Of course, you pull off your most stunning achievements whenever Freddie is lurking somewhere under the surface... But, taking things on their own, you were more successful in the Rhineland than I would have believed possible.

well its certainly gone better than I expected, even the Austrian army has enough to fill out 3 decent corps (& that with the really damaged stuff sent back to Wien) ... but its a case of never being where Freddie is for quite a while yet

Sounds nice ! Patience pays off.

But in 1760, the Prussian player will receive massive English reinforcements (20K men), so you might want to strike quickly !

I think I'll be able to use a small French army (say 2.5 corps worth) to start grabbing the fortresses in that region - it depends on making sure I have enough strength to overmatch Cumberland and hoping that the Prussians don't send something decent over from Saxony ... if it goes well I should hold W Hannover etc by the end of the year.

But yes, now the situation seems to be under control again. 120:80 is still not good, but one can win battles.

Great updates!

my firm intention is not to even think of fighting at even odds, at least till I have my NM back over 100 (& even then not against the main Prussian army if I can help it)

 

[loki100]

Taking it one step at a time: March 1760

In the first half of this turn not too much happened, my French forces are splitting into 2 blocks - the large Army of Germany (5 corps) and a small Army of France (2.5 corps) and recovering cohesion etc from the last few turns of combat, so:



hah, nice to see such an enterprising approach to funding the French army



Still very snowy in Bohemia but Freddie and the bulk of the Prussian army continue to churn around in Dresden and Leipzig, so I know trouble is coming. In effect, I'll abandon Prag (except for the large fixed garrison), keep out the way and see if I can pick something off ...



In the north I am now very hampered by only having 1 surviving supply wagon (the rest froze) and about 5 brigades (4 of infantry) plus a decent stock of artillery to hand. Kolberg if I'm lucky and then a long rest on this sector.



Now Cumberland seems to be splitting up his forces - which is good if I can take it apart in small sections. In effect 70% of the French Army is to bottle him up (at the least), beat him if they can. And the balance will assault various cities in W Hannover (hopefully includng Bremen). The ideal is to do well enough to force some bits of Freddie's main army over here ... but not too much of it



that disrupts one of those smaller forces ... I'm getting used to actually winning battles



and overall:



still worse than it was at the start of 1759 when I was worried at my NM in the mid-80s but it means I can win battles now if the numbers favour me (& one of the better Prussian generals aren't there)

 

[Stuyvesant]

's Nice...

Good job beating up on the smaller foes while skillfully (?) evading Big Scary Freddie.

Why are you (considering) abandoning Prag? Worried that Fred will come looking for you? But you'll have to stop him sometime, somewhere... Or is this part of the masterplan to string out the Prussians in long sieges and continue your sniping from the flanks?

 

[morningSIDEr]

Quite a stunning recovery in the last few updates, great to see. Hopefully you are able to continue punishing smaller forces whilst avoiding any larger foes. If you can continue nibbling away at Prussia units and your morale continues to improve at this rate, perhaps an Austrian victory will yet be seen! Cracking stuff.

 

[Stoertebecker]

Do you really want to give up Prague? You won't find a better Position to beat Frederick: Digged in, behind a river, in Defense: If anywhere, Prague is the place to change the tide, I think. Another advantage: Prague is quite far from Prussian supply bases. You could cut them with some Hussars. How many troops do you have left in Bohemia?

Possible downside would be that you never know where the troops will flee to if they lose the battle: If they escape into the fortress that would be ... not good.

 

[loki100]

's Nice...

Good job beating up on the smaller foes while skillfully (?) evading Big Scary Freddie.

Why are you (considering) abandoning Prag? Worried that Fred will come looking for you? But you'll have to stop him sometime, somewhere... Or is this part of the masterplan to string out the Prussians in long sieges and continue your sniping from the flanks?

Do you really want to give up Prague? You won't find a better Position to beat Frederick: Digged in, behind a river, in Defense: If anywhere, Prague is the place to change the tide, I think. Another advantage: Prague is quite far from Prussian supply bases. You could cut them with some Hussars. How many troops do you have left in Bohemia?

Possible downside would be that you never know where the troops will flee to if they lose the battle: If they escape into the fortress that would be ... not good.

well I thought long and hard over this. In favour of fighting is the river, my brigades are well reinforced, Daun on the defense etc. In favour of running is that my NM is still very fragile and if I get a bad beating it'll be July or so before I can do any damage, if I keep the army intact and fall back I may even be able (as I did with the French) to take back Prag after they move away .... its a mark of the quality of the game that it produces this sort of dilemna. And yes, somehow, at some stage I need to beat Freddie ...

Quite a stunning recovery in the last few updates, great to see. Hopefully you are able to continue punishing smaller forces whilst avoiding any larger foes. If you can continue nibbling away at Prussia units and your morale continues to improve at this rate, perhaps an Austrian victory will yet be seen! Cracking stuff.

Well I'll be honest, I'm playing for a reasonably historical stalemate, but all of a sudden the French are creating real opportunities

 

[loki100]

Being Cautious: April 1760

On the Rhine, in effect I now have two separate campaigns. The first is aimed at damaging Cumberland more than anything else so



my hope is to wreck that unit at Mainz and then overwhelm Cumberland at Frankfurt

further north, I've worked out the sequence of sieges I need:



in effect Lippstadt is the only real obstacle and then I have a choice of Hannover or Bremen (optimism is good for the soul )

and over in Austria, with Freddie still up at Dresden, I have at least one more turn to decide whether to stay or run





in outcome very little happened, the Hannoverians slipped away at Mainz



but as you can see I'm now well placed to move to Frankfurt. I've given the corps defend orders so hopefully I won't get a sequence of ill co-ordinated attacks



and further north, I start the siege sequence



over in Austria, Freddie et al appear outside Prag (incl Keith), so I change my orders about 10 times. In the end I opt to order Daun et al to retire.

Why:

well - the Prussian army has a combined power (I think this is strength plus some measure of competence) of over 6000 and I have under 4000. Even with the river, I reckon I'll lose and my NM is back in a hole. At the moment on the Rhine I'm being aggressive with the French as the NM gap is not too bad. If I'm lucky, either the units attached to the Bavarian army will recover (so I have another 20000 effectives) or Fred et al split up, or I can cut their supply and fight when it suits me.

I'm really not sure I've made the right choice



& in a way this doesn't help, as I quite handily beat the Prussian advance guard and then fell back in good order.



So slowly the NM moves back in my favour. The French seem to be dominant on the Rhine and the Russian artillery is moving back to Kolberg.

& its springtime in Bohemia ....

 

[Stuyvesant]

Questions, questions, questions... It's hard to know if you made the right decision (at least, until you post the next update), but I can certainly understand your reasoning. It is a testament to the game that you end up with this dilemma, without a clear 'right' and 'wrong' choice: both staying and retreating offer opportunities and risks.

I'm hoping the Prussians spread out as you wave them adieu near Prague, so that you can do some serious damage to isolated units. Then again, doesn't Freddie move like a bunny on crack around the map, meaning he can reinforce those 'isolated' units double-quick? Well, whether that's the case or not, it's too late now to worry about it.

 

[morningSIDEr]

I think you've probably made the right choice in falling back with Daun, best to let your NM recover a bit more and continue picking off weak towns and units. You certainly have a lot of options open to you are present, if all goes well you could end up in a very strong position.

 

[loki100]

Questions, questions, questions... It's hard to know if you made the right decision (at least, until you post the next update), but I can certainly understand your reasoning. It is a testament to the game that you end up with this dilemma, without a clear 'right' and 'wrong' choice: both staying and retreating offer opportunities and risks.

I'm hoping the Prussians spread out as you wave them adieu near Prague, so that you can do some serious damage to isolated units. Then again, doesn't Freddie move like a bunny on crack around the map, meaning he can reinforce those 'isolated' units double-quick? Well, whether that's the case or not, it's too late now to worry about it.

By the end of May, its suddenly got very complex in this regard, Freddie cuts loose and I'm having to hope to outguess him in my moves ...

I think you've probably made the right choice in falling back with Daun, best to let your NM recover a bit more and continue picking off weak towns and units. You certainly have a lot of options open to you are present, if all goes well you could end up in a very strong position.

well that was my logic, if I stood at Prag and got badly beaten (even if I handed out a lot of damage), then the Prussians had free reign for 1760, as it is I am slowly recouping the NM deficit back to something where I feel confident about actually fighting (with odds &/or terrain on my side)