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Juboboman

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I think he believed it and was genuinely antisemitic but it is true that he didn't specifically plan something like the Holocaust. It just happened that way because of how he was running things and of circumstances. Maybe if another man, even another Nazi was in charge things would be completely different.

The initial plans were for mass deportation out of Europe. Those plans were inherently unworkable, and as the war began to stagnate and turn against Germany it was decided in early 42 that the complete extermination of the Jews must happen. And indeed the worse the war went for the Germans, the more in their mind they had an incentive to completely eliminate Jewry from Europe for having manipulated the world into this position of world war yet again. It's all nonsense of course, but that's what they believed at the top.
 

Kovax

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One of the main reasons why Hitler occupied Hungary directly before the end of the war, and why Germany fought so tenaciously to keep the Soviets from over-running Budapest, was that many Jews fled from Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland, and Austria to Hungary. At one point, Hungary had more Jews than any nation in Europe.

Under pressure from Hitler, Hungary passed anti-Semitic laws, but generally only half-way measures compared to what Hitler insisted upon. When Hitler demanded that Jews be outlawed, Hungary enacted legislation making it illegal to practice the religion in an organized manner. When Hitler demanded that Jews be excluded from certain professions, Hungary restricted the percentages of Jews in some of those fields. Hungary sent a group of Jews to Germany for "work details" as requested, but refused to send more until the first group was returned. Eventually, Hitler tired of the constant foot-dragging and passive resistance, and occupied the country directly, citing the threat of armed Jewry poised at the throat of Germany as the justification for the invasion. When the Soviets invaded Hungary, Hitler devoted an inordinate amount of military force to slowing the advance, in order to buy time to continue rounding up more of the refugee Jews from the rest of Europe, from where they were sheltering mainly in the Budapest area.

If you want more information, the book "Hungary, the Unwilling Satellite", written by the US ambassador to Hungary at the time, goes into a lot of detail, and explains why Hungary did what it did, in order to (unsuccessfully) stave off occupation without having to sacrifice its minorities to Hitler's program of destruction. He points out that, while some Hungarians were complicit with Germany, more were willing to help the refugees find housing and work. He also points out that Hitler's plans were not completed in Hungary, with the result that hundreds of thousands more may have survived than if Hungary had taken a defiant but hopeless stance against Hitler from the start. Regent Miklos Horthy was described as willing to let Hungary bend in order not to break. Today, he is reviled by many as a complicit anti-Semite, but his actions can also be viewed as doing the minimum amount of harm under the very difficult circumstances. He had nothing good to say about Hitler, and later testified against the Nazis on the issue in the Nuremburg war trials.

Trying to understand the politics and rationale behind those decisions and events is difficult or impossible without taking Hitler's personal hatreds into account.
 

trybald

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The initial plans were for mass deportation out of Europe. Those plans were inherently unworkable, and as the war began to stagnate and turn against Germany it was decided in early 42 that the complete extermination of the Jews must happen. And indeed the worse the war went for the Germans, the more in their mind they had an incentive to completely eliminate Jewry from Europe for having manipulated the world into this position of world war yet again. It's all nonsense of course, but that's what they believed at the top.

The extermination began earlier. In late 1941 it turned out that the extermination by firing squads is unworkable and there is need to industrialize the process. In early 1942 only technical details were being arranged.
 

pithorr

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Any sources ?

Read about Einsatzgruppen activities from the very beginning of the Barbarossa.

I may be a source either. My grand-grandpa witnessed the whole Jewish population of his town led for the death by the SS troops just when the Germans come in the first days of the war with the USSR. Including small kids with teddy bears in their hands. He has got a heart attack becuase of it...
 

trybald

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Any sources ?

Wut? Einsatzgruppen are established fact. There's no doubt both to their existence and to their actions. Should I give you the most basic literature about the Holocaust?

Einsatzgruppen turned out to be unworkable for several reasons. They were inefficient simply because there's a limit of how many people can be killed by firearms in a given time. Apparently during the June-December 1941 period, they killed about 140 thousand people - a lot, but far below expectations. Worse, the word of massacres was spreading faster than German Einsatzgruppen could travel to another location and local Jewish populations began to flee. The German top echelons were also concerned that with Einsatzgruppen they were breeding only another problem - a huge number of desensitized, psychopathic killers who would cause trouble after their "work" is done.
 

makif130289

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Wut? Einsatzgruppen are established fact. There's no doubt both to their existence and to their actions. Should I give you the most basic literature about the Holocaust?

Einsatzgruppen turned out to be unworkable for several reasons. They were inefficient simply because there's a limit of how many people can be killed by firearms in a given time. Apparently during the June-December 1941 period, they killed about 140 thousand people - a lot, but far below expectations. Worse, the word of massacres was spreading faster than German Einsatzgruppen could travel to another location and local Jewish populations began to flee. The German top echelons were also concerned that with Einsatzgruppen they were breeding only another problem - a huge number of desensitized, psychopathic killers who would cause trouble after their "work" is done.

No need to behave like i am a denier. I wanted to ask if there were any extermination camps before Wannsee. Yes, Einsatzgruppen mass shootings were begining of the butchery but exact decision to eradicate all Jews seems to be taken sometime in 1942.
 

Grandpa Maur

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No need to behave like i am a denier. I wanted to ask if there were any extermination camps before Wannsee. Yes, Einsatzgruppen mass shootings were begining of the butchery but exact decision to eradicate all Jews seems to be taken sometime in 1942.
You wrote somewhat wrong post, because you asked for sources not for camps, but for the extermination beginning earlier, as stated in trybald post.

Einsatzgruppen were part of the extermination thing, and they started earlier, death camps are not requirement.
 

Arilou

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Wut? Einsatzgruppen are established fact. There's no doubt both to their existence and to their actions. Should I give you the most basic literature about the Holocaust?

Einsatzgruppen turned out to be unworkable for several reasons. They were inefficient simply because there's a limit of how many people can be killed by firearms in a given time. Apparently during the June-December 1941 period, they killed about 140 thousand people - a lot, but far below expectations. Worse, the word of massacres was spreading faster than German Einsatzgruppen could travel to another location and local Jewish populations began to flee. The German top echelons were also concerned that with Einsatzgruppen they were breeding only another problem - a huge number of desensitized, psychopathic killers who would cause trouble after their "work" is done.

It was less about breeding psychopathic killers and more about the fact that despite everything the Einzatsgruppen turned out NOT to be immune to the horrors they wrought: They were getting psychological issues in massive numbers, so the germans tried to figure out a way to make the killing less personal.
 

trybald

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No need to behave like i am a denier. I wanted to ask if there were any extermination camps before Wannsee. Yes, Einsatzgruppen mass shootings were begining of the butchery but exact decision to eradicate all Jews seems to be taken sometime in 1942.

As Miko said. Also, Wannsee was a meeting of mid-to-high rank bureaucrats who discussed various technical and logistical details of extermination camps. Ergo, the actual decisions have been undertaken earlier.

It was less about breeding psychopathic killers and more about the fact that despite everything the Einzatsgruppen turned out NOT to be immune to the horrors they wrought: They were getting psychological issues in massive numbers, so the germans tried to figure out a way to make the killing less personal.

Forgot the exact source, but I've read that Himmler was particularly concerned of what Einsatzgruppen's members would do after the killing of Jews is complete. He had a small daughter himself after all.
 
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makif130289

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As Miko said. Also, Wannsee was a meeting of mid-to-high rank bureaucrats who discussed various technical and logistical details of extermination camps. Ergo, the actual decisions have been undertaken earlier.



Forgot the exact source, but I've read that Himmler was particularly concerned of what Einsatzgruppen's members would do after the killing of Jews is complete. He had a small daughter himself after all.

Yeah, it was my incomplete question. Wannsee was bureaucratic meeting but it is important because it shows kind of official action from the government to start "Final Solution". I wonder if there were any written orders for Einsatzgrppen troops. Himmler probably verbally ordered SS leaders to eliminate Jewish communities in the specific occupied territories.