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Trickrs

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Historical simulation would be boring for the exact same reason forced lucky nations is boring. The exact same thing happens every damn game outside of player actions and it becomes tedious and boring to play since you are fighting the same nations and seeing the same colonisers every game.

EUIV isn't by ANY means a historical simulator since anything outside warfare is limited and I still fight the same nations no matter who I pick. Great Powers will ALWAYS hate each other, they'll ALWAYS rival the same countries (the player + two other) no matter where they are, they'll ALWAYS claim all your provinces if have the chance and they'll ALWAYS DoW you for the most stupid reason if have strenght, try playing a European, rise to power without fighting at least three of those: France, Castille, Austria, England, Russia and Poland.

Why can't Bohemia have better luck than in real life and occasionally stomp Austria?

Bohemia often blobs in Northern Germany, it may lose two provinces to Austria, but they can become emperor in like 30% of the games and stay so.

Why can't Burgundy avoid being heirless and become a major European power?

They often survives, the event doesn't care if they have a heir.
 

CyaN

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What this forum has is two types of people. One group wants to be able to take a country and paint the world in its color. Maybe it's a small country, maybe it's a large country. The other group wants a game where they can change history within a series of constraints. These groups will always be at a cross-purpose.

That's not correct at all. Painting the map your color is usually the "lesser evil" option chosen by people who come to consider that there is nothing interesting to do in this game except painting the map your color; so you can either do that, or be bored to death, because the game lacks any resemblance of depth. Either you conquer your neighbors, or you set the speed to 5, sit idle and watch the years pass by and the game end. That's pretty bad by itself, but if the game is designed to not allow you to conquer your neigbors most of the time, then it's an awful experience. This game is like buying an ice cream cone and then having to fight a tiger who's holding it in his mouth to get it. After some time you realize the ice cream is not worth fighting with a tiger, any other ice cream parlor will just give you the cone sans the fight with a tiger, you're not enjoying being mauled to death by a wild animal, and also there's no goddamn reason the ice cream should be in the mouth of a tiger and the whole situation is absurd.

"Changing history within a series of constraints" a) does not "change history", because the things that are happening in EUIV bear no resemblance to "history"; the only thing you can actually change is the exact point where the frontiers of 2 countries meet and b) is limited by a very high number of completely arbitrary constraints, totally unrelated to the realities of the Modern Age.
 
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NikephorosSonar

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And that has no bearing on the fact that those two player bases exist. Just because one side has a game that barely pleases them doesn't mean they don't exist. Otherwise I don't think these threads would crop up.
 

CyaN

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And that has no bearing on the fact that those two player bases exist. Just because one side has a game that barely pleases them doesn't mean they don't exist. Otherwise I don't think these threads would crop up.

No, I don't think they actually exist. "Anyone who complains about anything just wants to paint the map his color (and possibly comes from the Total War series)" is, sadly, the go-to answer against anything being said by anyone in this board since the game was released; but the actual number of people who play EU4 exclusively with that aim is anecdotical (people who dislike EU4 and resort to "painting the map" to at least have some fun just... stop playing, after a while) and pretty much none of the issues commonly raised are related to that. It's much more complicated than that.
 
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saegoto

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That's not correct at all. Painting the map your color is usually the "lesser evil" option chosen by people who come to consider that there is nothing interesting to do in this game except painting the map your color; so you can either do that, or be bored to death, because the game lacks any resemblance of depth. Either you conquer your neighbors, or you set the speed to 5, sit idle and watch the years pass by and the game end. That's pretty bad by itself, but if the game is designed to not allow you to conquer your neigbors most of the time, then it's an awful experience. This game is like buying an ice cream cone and then having to fight a tiger who's holding it in his mouth to get it. After some time you realize the ice cream is not worth fighting with a tiger, any other ice cream parlor will just give you the cone sans the fight with a tiger, you're not enjoying being mauled to death by a wild animal, and also there's no goddamn reason the ice cream should be in the mouth of a tiger and the whole situation is absurd.

"Changing history within a series of constraints" a) does not "change history", because the things that are happening in EUIV bear no resemblance to "history"; the only thing you can actually change is the exact point where the frontiers of 2 countries meet and b) is limited by a very high number of completely arbitrary constraints, totally unrelated to the realities of the Modern Age.

yeah :D
 

Strangedane

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Snip...
and pretty much none of the issues commonly raised are related to that.

Coring threads and the vassal/protectorate megathreads pretty much buries that argument.
 

Karnak

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Surely if there was an inhuman effort in Norway - a huge drive in recruitment, massive increases in ships built - it would be possible?
no, it's stupid. the chinese weren't even as inferior as paradox suggests.
at most a foothold would be secured, and then only at the mercy of the chinese. hell, the norwegians got wiped off the face of greenland for god's sake. inuits. people using stone spears and wearing animal skins.

just because it can be done in the game, it doesn't mean that it could have happened in real life.
the game should accurately model what was possible at a given time period, or else we might just as well introduce extra lives, respawns, and award combos and streaks for successful wars.

hell, with EU4 being made even more dumbed down and "accessible", we might as well, am i right?
 

Karnak

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What this forum has is two types of people. One group wants to be able to take a country and paint the world in its color. Maybe it's a small country, maybe it's a large country. The other group wants a game where they can change history within a series of constraints. These groups will always be at a cross-purpose.
I'd rather see us as one type of people, just as you can see "two types of people" suffering from ADD/ADHD, the root cause is a difficulty of the brain to adequately stimulate itself.
One type rebels against the inadequacy, and is seen as hyperactive, meaning ADHD. The other type resigns, and is seen as passive, meaning ADD.
It all comes down to how our personalities can handle the disorder.

We are one type of people, and the disorder is the game we're playing.

The game is supposed to be a historical simulation of how worldwide nations were developing between the years 1400 and 1800.
The game fails to deliver in great enough detail, accuracy or plausibility, and this is the disorder that plagues us.

It is an apt metaphor, since eu4 like ADHD/ADD is a condition denying us stimulation.

So we split into rebellious and resigned camps.

The map painters can be seen as the hyperactive ones, they expect the game to engage them, and they expect to be challenged and do a good job of playing the game. This means that they do everything in their power to win.
Since there is a massive lack of anything to do besides warfare(and also colonization, both equating making land gains), this is what that type of player focuses on.
They keep objective goals they can make gains on, and they look at the big picture. The big picture consists of making huge land gains as soon as possible and disregarding everything else that is unable to challenge them, which due to the design of the game nothing can. For this type of player, they would like to see the game accurately challenge them like it promised, but it doesn't. They will keep up conquering until they grow bored with the lack of challenge and the game's unfinished state and either move on, or restart. They can be very vocal about changes because of their high standards, and are frequently misrepresented and treated as troublemakers by the developers, as evidenced by the constant degrading of the game by erecting of barriers against winning, rather than improving the game to hold a challenge.

The passive ones are the ones that generally come to the defense of the game, and try to look past its design flaws. In contrast to the map painters, they set subjective goals and leave a lot of the lack of design content to their own imagination.
They don't try as hard and aren't as determined, and might go as far as to cede territory to enemy nations just to pretty up their borders, currently making an objective loss.
These players are the easiest to please, and they often just want the game to remain constant so that their inner view of their current game is not interrupted. They are likely to blame the more active players when things change, and are generally casual in their approach to the game. A lot of time is spent socializing and idly chatting about history and debating the various few features or lack of that the game provides that are detailed, accurate, or plausible.

Since the game fails to provide a challenge, the game was continuously patched to make it harder to collect your profits when you win, and has lately done a 180-degree turn on that method and instead just left the game easy, both sneaky backdoors to take that blatantly paints the game in a most unflattering light, that of a game that is too poor to stand on its own.


If the PI team managed to make for more interesting peace-time management, and made these a sort of natural barrier to expansion, such as improving the court mechanics and imlementing a character system like ck2, then people might start to play the same game.

When there is no gap between the game mechanics, and the expectations of what the game should be, which is universal, then we can become one.
 

Cyridius

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Coring threads and the vassal/protectorate megathreads pretty much buries that argument.

That's such a ridiculous response I can't even formulate a reply that fully encompasses how illogical that is.

Aside from that...

I don't understand people who want a historical simulator. From the ground up there is absolutely nothing about this game that can accurately simulate history outside of scripted events. It's a war simulation and strategy games with vague elements of diplomacy and trade - totally historical!

So, yeah, I don't understand that playerbase. It's like they don't want a good game. When history and gameplay coincide it's great, but that doesn't make the game, mechanics make the game, history adds flavour.
 

WeissRaben

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That's such a ridiculous response I can't even formulate a reply that fully encompasses how illogical that is.

Aside from that...

I don't understand people who want a historical simulator. From the ground up there is absolutely nothing about this game that can accurately simulate history outside of scripted events. It's a war simulation and strategy games with vague elements of diplomacy and trade - totally historical!

So, yeah, I don't understand that playerbase. It's like they don't want a good game. When history and gameplay coincide it's great, but that doesn't make the game, mechanics make the game, history adds flavour.

That's because you are looking at the words in their literal meaning. "Historical simulator" - at least for me - doesn't mean that it should trace history as it went. Au contraire - I am absolutely against any trace of this path, as the UNIs, for example. What I want is a simulator of historical processes, if you will - a game that shows the external, but also internal, growth of the nations in the Early Modern era. As it stands now, of the four great categories you can divide development into (Military, Administrative, Scientific and Cultural), the game represents only the Military one, snippets of Science and even more insignificant fragments of Administration. I don't care if Aragon survives to 1821, and I even encourage this possibility; what I care about is seeing its growth.
 

saegoto

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(...) I want is a simulator of historical processes, if you will - a game that shows the external, but also internal, growth of the nations in the Early Modern era. As it stands now, of the four great categories you can divide development into (Military, Administrative, Scientific and Cultural), the game represents only the Military one, snippets of Science and even more insignificant fragments of Administration. I don't care if Aragon survives to 1821, and I even encourage this possibility; what I care about is seeing its growth.

this

for example: process from feudal monarchy to absolutic monarchy was long and it was PROCESS. The game reflects it like: just A CLICK in tech 'tree'.
 
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Karnak

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I am absolutely against any trace of this path, as the UNIs, for example. What I want is a simulator of historical processes, if you will - a game that shows the external, but also internal, growth of the nations in the Early Modern era.

correct. we want the freedom to simulate how the world could have developed, and the mechanics that drive this evolution should not be scripted ahead of time. we also want the same limitations in the game as in real life to provide a challenge for world conquest.

if the iberian wedding happens, and the formation of poland-lithuania, these should be events that every nation has a chance to access.
likewise, the death of the burgundian king should be an event that has a possibility to fire at any time for any other nation as well.

the game has deliberately limited itself in the new incarnation of the eu franchise, we do not want innovative new mechanics for their own sake, only those that would accurately model the conditions at the time. the monarch points are generally fine and approved of since they work so well, even though they are pretty stupid. no monarch would automatically make his entire cabinet of ministers obselete.

the idea of unique national ideas on the other hand, and country-specific events and modifiers undermine the whole premise of allowing history to play out. let's say portougal is driven off the mainland and has to settle in south america and spends the rest of the game contenting militarily with the sunset invasion converted incas.
Where is the reason for them having their trade-oriented national ideas then?
 

unmerged(205148)

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Of course, unique national ideas are a shortcut way to stimulate all other unrepresented factors (we don't have enough internal mechanics in-game to represent why nations like real-life Portugal are good at trade, so let's slap an unique bonus and call it a day). Of course, they create quite a dissonance when the game develops differently from history, yet still gives nations scripted bonuses. Once these factors are actually represented, unique national ideas are not necessary. An approach like this

if the iberian wedding happens, and the formation of poland-lithuania, these should be events that every nation has a chance to access.
likewise, the death of the burgundian king should be an event that has a possibility to fire at any time for any other nation as well.

Is exactly the approach EU needs. Contextualize all these flavourful unique events so that they may happen for many nations.

I wonder, however, why the "we want internal development" complaints are so much more common in EU4 then they were in EU3. Sure, the latter had sliders, but they were in no way especially complex, immersive or deep.
 
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Careful Plum

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Of course, unique national ideas are a shortcut way to stimulate all other unrepresented factors (we don't have enough internal mechanics in-game to represent why nations like real-life Portugal are good at trade, so let's slap an unique bonus and call it a day). Of course, they create quite a dissonance when the game develops differently from history, yet still gives nations scripted bonuses. Once these factors are actually represented, unique national ideas are not necessary.

Personally, I just don't see Paradox games developing in a direction where these factors are better simulated (or simulated at all).

I think the basic problem is the model of the world on which EU and the other series is based. The world consists of a series of states which divide a map between themselves. Everything dynamic and interactive revolves around the relations between those states. Everything that happens within them is abstracted into a general modifier.

For example, if I'm hostile to a neighbour state, there's a concrete reason for that (or at least, the game makes an honest effort to give a concrete reason). Both sides can act on this reason, resulting in a relatively dynamic situation. Tensions, conflicts and interactions within the state, on the other hand are given as a general modifier. The only part that is actually active is the state itself.

What I mean is that everything within a nation is somehow static. There's no attempt to do an AI for rebels, for example. Before they rebel, they're simply a modfier that is apt to generate a rebel stack with a certain likelihood. There's no attempt on the side of the rebels to formulate a strategy; no attempts to weaken the government, for example, the place where they rebel is pretty much random etc. etc. Another example: religion has a dynamic effect in the relation between states (the decision to declare war to force conversion, for example), whereas the spread of religion below the state level ist simply random.

The result is that the game appears to only be about warfare. I think that's a mistaken view. Various factors influencing international relations ARE simulated, like the effect of religion. It's just that everything taking place WITHIN the borders of a state is abstracted and generally only taken into account to the degree with which it affects relations to other states (including how capable the state is to wage war on them).
 

CyaN

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I think the basic problem is the model of the world on which EU and the other series is based. The world consists of a series of states which divide a map between themselves. Everything dynamic and interactive revolves around the relations between those states. Everything that happens within them is abstracted into a general modifier.

Just saying: fortunately that doesn't apply to Crusader Kings (individual rulers of small pieces of land and their petty desires are the prime movers of history, which is good enough for the age) or Victoria (where the wonderful mechanic of POPs makes the world go round in a pretty believable way). It's a problem of the EU series.
 

Careful Plum

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Just saying: fortunately that doesn't apply to Crusader Kings (individual rulers of small pieces of land and their petty desires are the prime movers of history, which is good enough for the age) or Victoria (where the wonderful mechanic of POPs makes the world go round in a pretty believable way). It's a problem of the EU series.

That's true, and I think CK feels much more interactive for it. I still think they should have more consistent with that, however. For example, a character without land can do absolutely nothing in CK. Random events can happen to them, but they can initiate absolutely nothing. They're objects, not subjects, philosophically speaking ;).
 

grommile

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correct. we want the freedom to simulate how the world could have developed, and the mechanics that drive this evolution should not be scripted ahead of time. we also want the same limitations in the game as in real life to provide a challenge for world conquest.

if the iberian wedding happens, and the formation of poland-lithuania, these should be events that every nation has a chance to access.
likewise, the death of the burgundian king should be an event that has a possibility to fire at any time for any other nation as well.
The thing is that in 1444, the man who rules Dijon isn't a King (despite what the game calls him).

In 1444, the ruler of Burgundy is His Grace, Philip III "the Good", Duke of Burgundy, a scion of the Burgundian junior line of the Capetian House of Valois. He holds the lands around Dijon, Nevers, and Charolles not in fee simple as a vassal of the French crown, nor by any kind of absolute sole right, but rather as an appanage of the French crown. An appanage could not be lawfully disposed of by its holder, and if the holder were to die without a legitimate male heir, it was an inherent part of the law under which the appanage was originally granted that those parts of his estates which were granted as part of the appanage revert to the crown.

Thus, it really is justified for Burgundy to be treated uniquely (and for the possibility to expire over time, representing the Dukes' de facto independence becoming de jure with their ascent to royalty) in this regard.
 

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Just saying: fortunately that doesn't apply to Crusader Kings (individual rulers of small pieces of land and their petty desires are the prime movers of history, which is good enough for the age) or Victoria (where the wonderful mechanic of POPs makes the world go round in a pretty believable way). It's a problem of the EU series.
It isn't a problem of the EU series. It is a difference of the EU series.
 

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It isn't a problem of the EU series. It is a difference of the EU series.

Well, it's certainly a difference, and for many players constitutes a problem.

The basic building blocks of the game being complete abstractions that are HUGE in size (nations, no less!) gives pretty much no elbow room to model... anything? Except for relations (hostile relations mostly) between them. Which is... well, the only thing actually present in EU4 that somewhat resembles the Modern Age. Using those building blocks doesn't allow the modelling of anything else.
 
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Chamboozer

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I wonder, however, why the "we want internal development" complaints are so much more common in EU4 then they were EU3. Sure, the latter had sliders, but they were in no way especially complex, immersive or deep.

IMO, it's because in EUIII we had the bigger problem of the AI not being able to form coherent states at all. EUIV is a major improvement in that now we do frequently have a strong France, Spain, Ottomans, Russia, etc., whereas in EUIII these places often all became balkanized. So now that major problem #1 has been fixed, people are turning to major problem #2: the lack of internal management.

It isn't a problem of the EU series. It is a difference of the EU series.

It's a difference, but that difference is entirely characterized by the absence of anything unique. CK and Victoria both have states that divide the map between them, but they also have much more than that. EU, on the other hand has an international system of states... and nothing else. The exception being trade, which is very flawed but still a great addition to the game. I see it as a big step in the right direction.