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hwoosh

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Chamboozer said:


Soooo Paradox released a game that's feature-complete but lacking in flavor in certain areas. Hardly a new thing. And we know with 100% certainty that they are going to keep release expansions that add historical flavor as well as new mechanics for many many years. The guy I quoted was saying something crazy like 'historical flavor doesn't happen at all!' Well, that's silly. There's a lot that's barebones but the bones themselves are there. And we know that they will get more flesh added to them for the foreseeable future. I really don't see a problem.
 

Chamboozer

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Sure, some of those examples were pure flavor that probably have no meaning to most people, but others were huge historical events that had tremendous consequences for European history. The bones are there when it comes to the Napoleonic conquests - Paradox would just have to change the way expansion works under certain circumstances. But when it comes to England and Ukraine, there are no bones. Without internal management there can be no conflict between King and Parliament, and there can be no attempt by Poland to integrate the Cossacks into their state, followed by failure and devastating rebellion. The only way Paradox can handle things like that now are with deterministic DHEs.
 

hwoosh

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Sure, some of those examples were pure flavor that probably have no meaning to most people, but others were huge historical events that had tremendous consequences for European history. The bones are there when it comes to the Napoleonic conquests - Paradox would just have to change the way expansion works under certain circumstances. But when it comes to England and Ukraine, there are no bones. Without internal management there can be no conflict between King and Parliament, and there can be no attempt by Poland to integrate the Cossacks into their state, followed by failure and devastating rebellion. The only way Paradox can handle things like that now are with deterministic DHEs.

That's true enough. But Paradox's stated goal is for the game to be a war game of pure expansion. With that in mind, internal affairs can never be anything but flavor, since they are only relevant insofar as they affect geo-political affairs. We can take issue with that goal, but it's not productive to expect Paradox to make design decisions that step outside that mould, then complain when it doesn't live up to those unrealistic expectations.
 

Beagá

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There's a French Revolution event, but the expansion mechanics prevent anything even remotely close to Napoleon's conquests from being possible. There's a Protestant Reformation, but the game has no way at all to represent the conflict between Puritans, Anglicans, and Scottish Presbyterians that helped bring about the English Civil War (let alone the conflict between King and Parliament). USA I can't comment on since I don't have Conquest of Paradise. The Cossack phenomenon isn't represented in the game aside from a Zaporozhia tag which hardly counts for anything. There's no Hussite religion aside from a generic 'heresy' that can appear anywhere, and Bohemia begins the game in the same position as any other Catholic country. Not all of these are necessarily 'essential' elements of the game, but the fact remains that they don't "happen regularly" in a manner resembling history.

Really, I think most 'history' people aren't upset about historical deviation as much as they are upset that the historical results are actually not possible most of the time under the current system, which is most apparent in the first two examples.

And here is the reason why Stability should me made different. A country with low Stability should face all kinds of issues if it´s internally divided. But you can´t do that as Stability as a game mechanic is a joke, and you can´t have religious minorities properly simulated if the model is all-or-nothing per province, unlike Victoria 2 with its POPs with different religions. Nor can you select different tolerances and face the consequences.

Likewise since Pretender and dinasties are a joke you can´t have a pretender of different Faith creating all kinds of trouble with external support and real civil wars.
 

brifbates

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And here is the reason why Stability should me made different. A country with low Stability should face all kinds of issues if it´s internally divided. But you can´t do that as Stability as a game mechanic is a joke, and you can´t have religious minorities properly simulated if the model is all-or-nothing per province, unlike Victoria 2 with its POPs with different religions. Nor can you select different tolerances and face the consequences.

Likewise since Pretender and dinasties are a joke you can´t have a pretender of different Faith creating all kinds of trouble with external support and real civil wars.

Some of the stuff being complained about here and in other recent posts is already available in mods. I can understand, given the stated design goals, why PI didn't integrate things like DG into the base game-keep it simple really doesn't apply to some of the things people are complaining about. At some point they have to draw the line between "include for realism" and "keep it simple" when keep it simple is a stated goal or even just to avoid a bloated, over-complicated mess. While many players (including me) would like more complex systems for religion/culture, much more difficulty managing a larger empire, and so on, not everyone feels the same. As long as PI facilitates the modders who will go the extra mile to add the "missing pieces" for those who want them I'm okay with a more bland vanilla game that is easier to jump into for newcomers/fun for the less hard-core crowd.
 

mcmanusaur

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That's true enough. But Paradox's stated goal is for the game to be a war game of pure expansion. With that in mind, internal affairs can never be anything but flavor, since they are only relevant insofar as they affect geo-political affairs. We can take issue with that goal, but it's not productive to expect Paradox to make design decisions that step outside that mould, then complain when it doesn't live up to those unrealistic expectations.
I think you're largely correct in your assessment of Paradox's rationale, but I think "4X" would be the most accurate way of putting it. It may be the most glorified, historically-detailed 4X game ever, but that's exactly what it is through and through. I can't believe that I've missed this obvious fact up to this point; even the EU4 wikipedia article makes this abundantly clear.

Obviously then, the rest of us who are looking for an open-ended history simulator set in this period will never be fully satisfied by EU4's trajectory. However, it must be said that there's basically no argument that adding more internal gameplay wouldn't add to the game immensely, if not for the fact that it falls outside of the game's intended scope. After all, by having a historical 4X environment without significantly modeling any internal stuff, you're not only stripping out so much interesting narrative but also so much in the way of strategic considerations. Indeed, 4X strategy games are intentionally abstracted and simplified to a heavy degree, and EU4 firmly lands in this brand of "strategy". It's actually not too far from Civilization if you think about it: more complicated systems in an asymmetrical historical setting with much more detail, but the overall premise remains the same.

The funny thing is that everyone on the forums is arguing over "sandbox vs. simulation vs. determinism" when EU4 is really none of the above; it's basically a glorified 4X game with random/quasi-deterministic events and a range of rigid (often hard-capped) abstractions for mechanics. That's not really a formula for a historical sandbox or a historical simulation, and watching the devs frantically tweak AE and related values in an effort to please people has been somewhat comical. I do still enjoy the game of course, but a lot of my enjoyment comes from pretending that it's something it's not and ignoring the parts that contradict this while I play.

stated design goals
I would love to see where Paradox has actually stated their design goals, because- even if I suspect that I've managed to capture them above- I don't think I've ever read anything like that.

As long as PI facilitates the modders who will go the extra mile to add the "missing pieces" for those who want them
I'm appreciative of Paradox's efforts to accommodate modders, but- from my admittedly not-the-most-knowledgeable outside perspective on EU4 modding- it seems like most of the potential for modding lies in just adding more content (adding more detail to the map, adding new tags, adding more flavor events, etc.) rather than dramatically changing how the systems behave. I realize the reason for this, but I feel that it's worth pointing out that there seems to be a significant portion of the forum community who like me will never be fully satisfied by simply adding more content to the existing game.

It's just kind of sad for the people who are looking for open-ended history simulators (sandbox-y and deterministic alike), because EU4 is the closest thing there is given the level of historical detail in the game, but it can never really serve that purpose due to design decisions that informed how the game's basic systems operate. Oh well, best of luck Paradox with wherever you take EU4, but does anyone know any other non-Paradox games (I already own games from all of Paradox's other grand strategy series) that might be more in line with what I've posted?
 
Last edited:

CyaN

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I think you're largely correct in your assessment of Paradox's rationale, but I think "4X" would be the most accurate way of putting it. It may be the most glorified, historically-detailed 4X game ever, but that's exactly what it is through and through. I can't believe that I've missed this obvious fact up to this point; even the EU4 wikipedia article makes this abundantly clear.

Obviously then, the rest of us who are looking for an open-ended history simulator set in this period will never be fully satisfied by EU4's trajectory. However, it must be said that there's basically no argument that adding more internal gameplay wouldn't add to the game immensely, if not for the fact that it falls outside of the game's intended scope. After all, by having a historical 4X environment without significantly modeling any internal stuff, you're not only stripping out so much interesting narrative but also so much in the way of strategic considerations. Indeed, 4X strategy games are intentionally abstracted and simplified to a heavy degree, and EU4 firmly lands in this brand of "strategy". It's actually not too far from Civilization if you think about it: more complicated systems in an asymmetrical historical setting with much more detail, but the overall premise remains the same.

The funny thing is that everyone on the forums is arguing over "sandbox vs. simulation vs. determinism" when EU4 is really none of the above; it's basically a glorified 4X game with random/quasi-deterministic events and a range of rigid (often hard-capped) abstractions for mechanics. That's not really a formula for a historical sandbox or a historical simulation, and watching the devs frantically tweak AE and related values in an effort to please people has been somewhat comical. I do still enjoy the game of course, but a lot of my enjoyment comes from pretending that it's something it's not and ignoring the parts that contradict this while I play.


I would love to see where Paradox has actually stated their design goals, because- even if I suspect that I've managed to capture them above- I don't think I've ever read anything like that.


I'm appreciative of Paradox's efforts to accommodate modders, but- from my admittedly not-the-most-knowledgeable outside perspective on EU4 modding- it seems like most of the potential for modding lies in just adding more content (adding more detail to the map, adding new tags, adding more flavor events, etc.) rather than dramatically changing how the systems behave. I realize the reason for this, but I feel that it's worth pointing out that there seems to be a significant portion of the forum community who like me will never be fully satisfied by simply adding more content to the existing game.

It's just kind of sad for the people who are looking for open-ended history simulators (sandbox-y and deterministic alike), because EU4 is the closest thing there is given the level of historical detail in the game, but it can never really serve that purpose due to design decisions that informed how the game's basic systems operate. Oh well, best of luck Paradox with wherever you take EU4, but does anyone know any other non-Paradox games (I already own games from all of Paradox's other grand strategy series) that might be more in line with what I've posted?

And you hit the nail right on the head with this post. I don't think anything more needs to be said.
 

Beagá

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A bit harsh, but overall true.

Nothing against that approach, BTW, but it doesn´t suit everyone.
 

gaius valerius

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After sifting through countless threads, I found the reason why:

It's the historical simulation people and Paradox catering to their unrealistic expectations!!!

They expect this game will somehow play out all historical facts and everything else in their games every time!

They expect France to win the Hundred Years War.

They expect Great Britain and France to colonize North America.

They expect Spain and Portugal to beeline into South America and Africa.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whenever a country deviates from this script , they want to punish it and nerf it into oblivion!!!!

---------------------------------------------------------------

God forbid if England wins the Hundred Years War! It must be nerfed!

God forbid if The Hansa somehow takes over Southeast Asia. It must be made impossible!

God forbid if somehow Norway winds up owning half of South America. Good God! Those Scandinavians and their NIs!

God forbid if the Ottoman Empire succeeds and blobs its way into Europe and the rest of the World! Oh noes ! Let's nerf them Moslem some more!

Another genius has seen the light. Derp.
 

WeissRaben

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The main problem with mods is that, most often, they need workarounds to substitute or create systems the game engine doesn't model to begin with. And these systems can be wonderfully done and well-crafted, but they are way more bloated and slow than an hardcoded part of the whole. A coder can streamline; a modder can't.
 

CyaN

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heh we're eight threads deep and I'm still winning

Sorry to say, but no one's talking to you here. No one's agreeing nor disagreeing with anything you said. The conversation got extremely more interesting than your uninspired original post 4 or 5 pages ago, and we're talking to each other since them.
 

Minigrinch

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Historical simulation would be boring for the exact same reason forced lucky nations is boring. The exact same thing happens every damn game outside of player actions and it becomes tedious and boring to play since you are fighting the same nations and seeing the same colonisers every game. Why can't Bohemia have better luck than in real life and occasionally stomp Austria? Why can't Burgundy avoid being heirless and become a major European power? Why can't another amazing ruler arise somewhere in central Asia and delay Russian expansionism long enough to westernise?

But instead you watch the exact same nations rise to prominence in mostly the same regions every game.
 

grommile

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Historical simulation would be boring for the exact same reason forced lucky nations is boring. The exact same thing happens every damn game outside of player actions and it becomes tedious and boring to play since you are fighting the same nations and seeing the same colonisers every game.
Who, exactly, do you want to have colonize the Americas instead of the countries with conveniently situated Atlantic ports? Complaining about it always being Spain and Portugal that kick off the colonization of the Americas is a bit like complaining that it's always the Ottomans, rather than J. Random Catholic, who deprives the Basileus of his crown.

Why can't Bohemia have better luck than in real life and occasionally stomp Austria?
Bohemia's fortunes seem... volatile.

Why can't Burgundy avoid being heirless and become a major European power?
It's not at all rare in 1.4 to see Burgundy survive to 1500 (and thus to the end of the game). And yes, I play on Ironman with default settings (i.e. Lucky Nations On).
 

CyaN

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Historical simulation would be boring for the exact same reason forced lucky nations is boring. The exact same thing happens every damn game outside of player actions and it becomes tedious and boring to play since you are fighting the same nations and seeing the same colonisers every game. Why can't Bohemia have better luck than in real life and occasionally stomp Austria? Why can't Burgundy avoid being heirless and become a major European power? Why can't another amazing ruler arise somewhere in central Asia and delay Russian expansionism long enough to westernise?

But instead you watch the exact same nations rise to prominence in mostly the same regions every game.

Historical simulation doesn't mean the same things happening in every game. Historical simulation means things happening for the right reasons. If the Ottoman Empire falls because it grew stagnant over time or because they didn't have a colonial empire or because they weren't able to overcome the crisis of the janissaries or the regional beys, or because they tried to expand in the HRE and they were rebuffed and mortally wounded... All that's fine, because it makes sense. The Ottomans may also survive and be a healthy and powerful nation by the dawn of the 19th century, if it happens for the right reasons.

If Ottomans protectorate Manchu, Russia allied with Austria declares war on them, and while the battles are being fought a Greek patriot rises in Cyprus, the AI is unable to kill him because they just had a brain fart and they don't know how to ferry troops so he breaks the country and Byzantium is released (?!?!?!) and Karaman too (?!?!?!) and the Ottomans become a republic (?!?!?!) which enters a spiral of infinite fail because their republican tradition is low (?!?!?!?!?!?!)... Well, that's insane. No one in his mind could believe that something like that could have happened to the Ottomans. And that was the main driving force of history during the Modern Age according to EU4: bizarre wars no one would have fought and rebels in islands. People have reasons to be less than thrilled about it.

(Of course, in most games the Ottomans will never decay, because they will face none of the challenges they actually faced. That's even worse. )
 

NikephorosSonar

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What this forum has is two types of people. One group wants to be able to take a country and paint the world in its color. Maybe it's a small country, maybe it's a large country. The other group wants a game where they can change history within a series of constraints. These groups will always be at a cross-purpose.
 

sunsterson

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What this forum has is two types of people. One group wants to be able to take a country and paint the world in its color. Maybe it's a small country, maybe it's a large country. The other group wants a game where they can change history within a series of constraints. These groups will always be at a cross-purpose.

This.