Romanization

[joriandrake]

uhh...you know, i think roman culture will be a lot before the so-called italian one emerges....except if we are allowed to rename our own culture/nation what would be fun (not to mention cities and provinces, changing nation color and coa, all ingame without special edits)

 

[hildoceras]

I wrote "Italic" to represent the culture in peninsular Italy except Rome. Not "Italian" of course

 

[Alhazen]

the ultimate example of the utter lack of Romanization even in the homeland of Italia is evident in the Social War.

 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

given the time period Romanisation shouldn't be much more than a thin layer of veneer.

It's not because people suddenly used mortaria in their kitchen or garum in their food, or made an attempt to build a porticus that they had become romans. Most people, regardless of accepting some trappings of Roman culture, never stopped being natives of their respective culture.

 

[unmerged(85507)]

I also think Romanization should be possible but slow, limited and expensive. If you want to achieve an unhistorical success you should really put extreme efforts into it (money, buildings).
An Italian or Hellenic (or whatever) world within some decades would be a little bit too easy and unrealistic. But cultural conversion should be in the game because it existed and it would be frustrating if you cannot do something against the fact that most people in your empire remain hostile aliens.

 

[Jolt]

What is the game's end date? I suppose 200 years would be enough to romanize a province.

 

[Alhazen]

What is the game's end date? I suppose 200 years would be enough to romanize a province.

Tell that to the Iberians.

 

[alvaro]

I also think Romanization should be possible but slow, limited and expensive. If you want to achieve an unhistorical success you should really put extreme efforts into it (money, buildings).
An Italian or Hellenic (or whatever) world within some decades would be a little bit too easy and unrealistic. But cultural conversion should be in the game because it existed and it would be frustrating if you cannot do something against the fact that most people in your empire remain hostile aliens.

more than expensive I'd say costly in economic efficience.

 

[hildoceras]

Gaul peoples went from Gallish (?) to Gallo-romans and, except for the higher classes, never became true romans. But they did were "romanized".

 

[unmerged(85507)]

more than expensive I'd say costly in economic efficience.

Yes, or it should have different political consequences. Cultural conversion raises the loyalty but makes it more difficult to extort these people because they are your own citizens. (in order to keep things simple there should be no difference between culture and citizenship in the game although in real history many people imitated a Roman way of life without having Roman citizenship).
Another advantage should be the ability to recruit more people and to recruit them as regular troops of your faction.
And if it is possible to simulate this, the established Roman citizens should be in fear of their exclusive status and thus become annoyed. And I think the Roman Senate opposed Romanization because extorting subjects and stealing their land was more profitable for them.

Romanization or cultural conversion in general could also be achieved by sending a certain number of your citizens as colonists to another province. This should be limited but also be rewarding. Of course, this only works if the population of each province is divided into different groups (free subjects, citizens) and every group is simulated with a certain number of people.

 

[unmerged(25822)]

I think there is no need for Romanization , after all Eastern Med nations may not had an army but their civilization was much more evolved and it was a kind of insulting to deny it in the name of any rome.
On the other hand Romans were flexible and had no problem to adopt foreign gods , trade goods, lifestyle , weapons. I think to make a new province loyal part of the empire you should invest in infrastructure (build roads, baths, cities/forts ) , trade , apply religious "cooperation" , grand citizenship and kill rebel leaders asap. Promoting the goods of your civilization should be the key, not slaughtery and colonization.
I would like to see how Ptolemies and Carthage will do that

 

[Vacceo]

Tell that to the Iberians.

Iberians where quite romanized by the time of Octavian, celtiberians weren´t that much romanized (though they were, to some exent, as archeology shows) and finaly, norther tribes (cantabrians and so on) weren´t at all.

 

[joriandrake]

I would like to see how Ptolemies and Carthage will do that

they did

Ptolemies - 'syria/judea' and parts of the hellenic region

Carthage - sicily, north-west africa, iberia


so i think not just romanization should be possible but also the option should be there for all other cultures to spread, even if roman might be a bit easier to spread

 

[hildoceras]

There is an effect of the romanization I'm finding while looking for Gaul names. There are no french first names that directly come from the Celtic names (i.e. without coming back from Ireland or Wales). One exception could be "Melissa" (sweet) but the root is indo-european and common with the latin Melissa.
All other gaul names disappeared, often as soon as the third generation after conquest.
On the opposite many french first names come from the Gothic/Frankish invasions that did not eliminate the many latin names (because of the catholic religion) but add their germanic names often latinised or sanctified.

 

[unmerged(25822)]

There is an effect of the romanization I'm finding while looking for Gaul names. There are no french first names that directly come from the Celtic names (i.e. without coming back from Ireland or Wales). One exception could be "Melissa" (sweet) but the root is indo-european and common with the latin Melissa.
All other gaul names disappeared, often as soon as the third generation after conquest.
On the opposite many french first names come from the Gothic/Frankish invasions that did not eliminate the many latin names (because of the catholic religion) but add their germanic names often latinised or sanctified.

Melissa is the Greek word for Bee.

 

[hildoceras]

Melissa is the Greek word for Bee.

we agree but with a root common to many indo-european languages

Proto-IE: *melit-

Meaning: honey

Hittite: maliddu- (miliddu-) 'süß', milit- n. 'Honig' (Friedrich 134, 143)
Armenian: meɫr, gen. meɫu `Honig'
Old Greek: méli, -itos n. `Honig'; mélissa, att. -tta f. `Biene'
Germanic: *miliʮ- c., *mili-sk-a- adj.
Latin: mel, gen. mellis n. `Honig', mella f. `Honigwasser'; mulsus, -a `mit Honig angemacht od. gesotten; honigsüss', mulsum n. `Weinmet', mulsa f. `Wassermet'
Celtic: OIr mil `Honig'; Cymr mel `Honig', Corn mel `Honig', Bret mel `Honig'
Albanian: mjal', mjal'tɛ Honig
Russ. meaning: мед

and I'd add french miel (honey)

 

[Alhazen]

I agree, but the conquest/Romanization of Gaul is rather at the end of our time period, end of the Republic.

 

[unmerged(2669)]

Gaul peoples went from Gallish (?) to Gallo-romans and, except for the higher classes, never became true romans. But they did were "romanized".

If the POP model is used, it'd be possible to represent this in a straightforward manner with 'upper class' POPs and 'hoi polloi' POPs. The upper class POPs get more goodies and so are friendlier to Rome (or Carthage, or whoever), while the lower classes have a happiness rating based on, oh, the amount of largesse that their leaders give them, or their leader's prestige or honour or whatever. If the benefits to the upper classes dry up, they lead their nation in rebellion: if the lower classes are unhappy, they rebel against their corrupted leaders. You could even, after enough time has elapsed, have the upper classes become Roman citizens (more loyalty towards Rome, increased chance of rebellion by the lower classes). Depending on the degree of control, it'd be more like CK's classes than Vic's POPs.

 

[hildoceras]

I agree, but the conquest/Romanization of Gaul is rather at the end of our time period, end of the Republic.

yes but it is a model of sort. From 50 BC to, let us say 50 AC (three or four generations) gaul names disappeared. Latin became the official language and the norm for inscriptions even if I do suppose that gaul langages were still spoken by most of the population.
We may suppose (and latin specialists could tell us more) that it has been the same thing in northern Italy when Rome militarily conquered it.

The Pops model proposed by Quercus is interesting in these aspects.

 

[Alhazen]

Roman merchants certainly brought Roman culture, that much we can agree on, and often made the upper class more open to Roman political involvement. Just look at the Briton nobility just prior to the second invasion, who had been recieving Roman mercantile goods for some time and were pro-Roman occupation.