romanian origins

Alexandru H. · Aug 14, 2003

Because of the lack of activity on this particular forum (come back, Sergei

), I have decided to post a little thread with the explicit objective of creating a little diversion for a few days. And what better conflict than the old romanian-hungarian battle for history

The game starts in 1066. By this time, the vlach and slavic principalities in Transylvania are gone. Hungary rules the land. Where are the romanians? If the game will be as promised, cultural groups will be present. Now, there are two theories....

1. romanian one....the romanian population is at the north of Danube (from the roman times), caught between invaders, but maintaing links with the other vlach populations in the Balkans, Tessalia and Epir....
2. hungarian one...the romanians are at the south, still under byzantine rule, freeing themselves only a century later, when Petru and Asan will defeat the Angelos dinasty and create a vlacho-bulgarian state.

What theory will the game embrace?

crazy canuck · Aug 14, 2003

Just to add a little more contraversy to the issue (with little or no factual basis) my Maternal grandmother's family came from present day Romania but at that time A-H. My grandmother had a bit of cultural confusion - whenever anyone asked what nationality she was she would respond that she was Austrian.

So there you have it. Neither the Romanians nor the Hungarians are right. In order to resolve the dispute it should all be under Austrian control.

Ducks just in case someone didn't realize I was joking.

Alexandru H. · Aug 15, 2003

well, remember that in the 1848-1849 revolution, when the hungarians declared their independence and occupied Transylvania, the Western Carpathians resisted because of Avram Iancu and his romanian legion, which were revolutionaries, but also supported the Austrian monarchy. The Austrians were viewed rather bad since 1867, but before that, they were heroes and only hope against hungarians (the celebrated uprising of Horea in 1784 began after Iosif II announced the end of peasant slavery...for instance)...

Today, when German Saxons are so few, we remember them as great builders and creators of civilization....a saxon village in Transylvania is a masterpiece

crazy canuck · Aug 15, 2003

That I did not know - so maybe my Grandmother was not so culturally confused after all.

Tamas · Aug 15, 2003

I would love to hear about any non-Romanian source which can show a proof for the "Romanians lived everywhere you can see" theory I often encounter.

Until that, I will not re-start the pointless debate against the fantasy books which some Romanians consider history.

Sorry if I was a bith harsh, but this is about the 200th topic on this issue, and I have yet to see an independent confirmation of Romania's claims.

Alexandru H. · Aug 15, 2003

Well, apart from some western historians who, I admit, were paid by my government to report a false report, there aren't any. But this was not the question and I am here not to argue. I simply asked how will this be handled in the game? If the romanians will be located in the south, fine. If it will be the other way around, again fine.

I admit, we were unlucky. Unlucky of being orthodox, of staying here, of not learning to appreciate our language till the 16th century....Maybe we came from the south, who knows? The question is how will all of this be portrayed in the game itself...

brandnew70x7 · Aug 16, 2003

Originally posted by Tamas
I would love to hear about any non-Romanian source which can show a proof for the "Romanians lived everywhere you can see" theory I often encounter.

Until that, I will not re-start the pointless debate against the fantasy books which some Romanians consider history.

Sorry if I was a bith harsh, but this is about the 200th topic on this issue, and I have yet to see an independent confirmation of Romania's claims.

Both sides have had their populations fed with propaganda as to who controls what/why unfortunately.

(I can just feel the tension btw..)

Deaghaidh · Aug 20, 2003

One reason there may not be any independant confirmation is that there may not have been a terrible lot of interest from western archeologists/historians on the question, or said people wanting to study something less politically charged and stay out of the line of fire.

But I'm kind of curious as well on this, not that I'm terrible commited to Romanian history. Rest assured, however, that however they choose a mod will appear shortly to appease the other faction

Tamas · Aug 20, 2003

Romanians living all around the Carpathian Basin should have left some note in history, don't you think? But they didn't, as this wasn't the case.

Deaghaidh · Aug 20, 2003

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" I have no idea where I heard that though

People might simply have been looking in the wrong places, and the 'smoking gun' is still lying buried in some farmers field (or mislabeled in a museum drawer). I'm completely just beign devils advocate though.

Tamas · Aug 20, 2003

The sad fact is that these stories emerged from national propaganda, and the need to justify territorial claims at the end of WWI (Romania wanted to receive much more from Hungary then it did at the end).

Demetrios · Aug 20, 2003

Just so everyone knows - I'm watching this thread so that it doesn't go sour. You guys are behaving fine now and keeping the discussion civil - make sure it stays that way...

Earl Uhtred · Aug 20, 2003

Originally posted by Tamas
The sad fact is that these stories emerged from national propaganda, and the need to justify territorial claims at the end of WWI (Romania wanted to receive much more from Hungary then it did at the end).

Crikey. I know there was a short war between them, but surely what Romania ended up getting was as much as they were ever likely to get? They got the entire Vlach-speaking zone and then some.

Alexandru H. · Aug 20, 2003

The problem is that the heavy-Magyar speaking areas are in the middle of Romania and this really was a misfortune, for both nations.

But enough about this? I just wanted to know a game-related problem...not start a debate on our origins...at least, we know our birth place

Tamas · Aug 21, 2003

Originally posted by Alexandru H.
The problem is that the heavy-Magyar speaking areas are in the middle of Romania and this really was a misfortune, for both nations.

Correct, plus Romania received Magyar-inhabited areas next to the new (current) Hungarian-Romanian border. So it was much more then enough to create the Romanian national state. What I was refered to is that Romanian delegation on the peace conference wanted even bigger portions of Hungary, areas and cities which were technically 100% Hungarian.

But I have just written this for Snuggs, I think we can stop the history discussion there.

As for CK, I don't believe, and strongly hope that I am right, that they will use the "Romanian version". At least the other one is backed by historical sources, so they should use that.

Alexandru H. · Aug 21, 2003

Originally posted by Tamas
As for CK, I don't believe, and strongly hope that I am right, that they will use the "Romanian version". At least the other one is backed by historical sources, so they should use that.

I wouldn't dream of a better solution, Tamas!

unmerged(15148) · Aug 22, 2003

Originally posted by Alexandru H.
The problem is that the heavy-Magyar speaking areas are in the middle of Romania and this really was a misfortune, for both nations.

But enough about this? I just wanted to know a game-related problem...not start a debate on our origins...at least, we know our birth place

Well, I just can't resist a comment concerning your first sentence...

It is quite sad, that you think, the fact that Hungarians are living in Romania is a "misfortune". Just like the Saxons, the Hungarians are the keepers of an extraordinary cultural heritage in Transylvania. The purpose of a right-minded state is to save, not to assimilate it...
So, the deportation/emigration/assimilation of the Transylvanian Saxons/Germans is a huge loss for everyone. Thank God, the Hungarian ethnic minority has avoided this kind of fate so far...

Concerning your original question, in the 11th century, the territory between the Danube and the Carpathian mountains was inhabited by the Petchenegs, Cumans and some Slavic tribes. But if you know any archeologycal finds, or historical sources which can prove that Romanians lived north of Danube that time, please let me know...

Tamas · Aug 22, 2003

Originally posted by Gergo
Well, I just can't resist a comment concerning your first sentence...

I guess Alexandru meaned it's unfortunate because it's impossible to draw a border which would please everyone.

crazy canuck · Aug 22, 2003

Originally posted by Tamas
I guess Alexandru meaned it's unfortunate because it's impossible to draw a border which would please everyone.

As an impartial bystander here, that is certainly the way I read it.

unmerged(15751) · Aug 22, 2003

Originally posted by Deaghaidh
"Absence of proof is not proof of absence" I have no idea where I heard that though People might simply have been looking in the wrong places, and the 'smoking gun' is still lying buried in some farmers field (or mislabeled in a museum drawer). I'm completely just beign devils advocate though.

It's a common saying. It's also quite wrong. When you're trying to rewrite history, as with science, the onus is on you to prove your position. If any position is as weak as to have no valid evidence for it then it's scarcely worth considering.

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