Roman restoration suggestion

[DorlasAnther]

What do you have to do in CK2 to make everyone in Europe consider ERE as true Roman Empire? You have to controll small pieces of land scattered around Italy, Africa and Middle East...and Thrace and Croatia.
But you do it, you manage to get all those duchies...only to realize HRE (which is by then most likely Orthodox, because mending the Schism is easier than to restore RE) is still there.

This made me thinking. Shouldn´t sign of true Roman Empire be destruction of other claimants on that title? What does it matter if some duchies in Italy or Croatia are controlled, when HRE is there? Wouldn´t it be better to decrease amount of needed duchies (I am talking about Thrace, Latium and Jerusalem...both capitals of Rome and main city of Christianity) and make other requirements? Mending the Schism could be one of them. After all, it was pope, who named Charlemagne the Emperor, so unless his influence is low, it makes sense many people would agree with him on this matter. And second condition would be lack of HRE.

Basically, to be considered true Roman Empire by everyone, you would need to:
A) Reclaim its former capital.
B) Reclaim Jerusalem, to show you are true leader of Christianity.
C) Unify Europe under one true faith.
D) Destroy the other Roman Empire, proving you are the only one with right to be called by that name.

I think this would be much better than current system, because it provides different challenges (and not just blind pressing of claims/holy warring to get needed duchies and nothing else in that land...it really gets boring after some time) and is also (IMHO) more logical and less immersion breaking (oh, the mighty Roman Empire...bit there, bit here, HRE chilling there, just beautiful).

 

[zijistark]

All points noted. This is a good time for imperial-related suggestions & feedback, because an upcoming release-- either Zeus5 or Zeus6, probably Zeus5, whereas the currently available release is Zeus3, and Zeus4 will be released within a few days-- will be featuring the addition of a brand new imperial government form, things like palace coups, and a complete replacement for the CM DLC's viceroyalty system that's less buggy and a lot more fun all around. These and a few other reasons are why folks should think about imperial-related (any kind of empire-- not just ye olde ERE) feedback to contribute now so that it's not already a done deal by the time you've got feedback/suggestions, with me no doubt thoroughly tired of imperial stuff for a long while afterward.

Regarding your main thesis, the only big issue I see with requiring the HRE to be destroyed before claiming the Roman Empire title (something the ERE already does by default, but the rest of the world-- except Muslims, they definitely continued to refer to the Byzzies as Rome right up until they annexed Greece-- doesn't necessarily see it that way) is that, well, it's really damn hard to destroy the HRE. Making this a requirement implies more unmentioned mechanics changes to increase the capability of doing that (aside from getting really lucky on a marriage claim and waiting to press it), I think, and I don't exactly know what those would be.

 

[DorlasAnther]

Well, even if destruction of HRE wasn´t required, it should at least be renamed when Roman Empire is "reformed" (empire of Germania or something like that). Either that, or Roman Emperor should get CB, where he will attack Emperor of HRE with aim to destroy it (basically, if RE wins, HRE is destroyed, but nothing is conquered...although I don´t know if that is even possible to implement).

 

[Pressburger]

Regarding your main thesis, the only big issue I see with requiring the HRE to be destroyed before claiming the Roman Empire title (something the ERE already does by default, but the rest of the world-- except Muslims, they definitely continued to refer to the Byzzies as Rome right up until they annexed Greece-- doesn't necessarily see it that way) is that, well, it's really damn hard to destroy the HRE. Making this a requirement implies more unmentioned mechanics changes to increase the capability of doing that (aside from getting really lucky on a marriage claim and waiting to press it), I think, and I don't exactly know what those would be.

There's also a relatively easier way than waiting for claims- be Catholic, set up an Antipope, take over the Papal State (making it your vassal in the process), request invasion for the HRE. Then it's up to you if you want to destroy the title or grant independence to the dukes you have taken over.

 

[DorlasAnther]

There's also a relatively easier way than waiting for claims- be Catholic, set up an Antipope, take over the Papal State (making it your vassal in the process), request invasion for the HRE. Then it's up to you if you want to destroy the title or grant independence to the dukes you have taken over.

I once did this in classic as Latin Empire. I then destroyed the title, released de jure vassals and kept Italy, while also putting my dynasty on throne of Byzantine Empire and renaming (I reloaded) them o Western Roman Empire and Eastern Roman Empire.
That´s what you get without empire dissintegration mechanic

 

[majesty8]

BTW, shouldn't the Latin Empire be able to restore Rome as well?
It was founded as a replacement to the Orthodox Byzantine Empire and meant to supplant it as the successor to ERE, so it makes sense for them to have the ability as well - under the same conditions, of course.

 

[DorlasAnther]

BTW, shouldn't the Latin Empire be able to restore Rome as well?
It was founded as a replacement to the Orthodox Byzantine Empire and meant to supplant it as the successor to ERE, so it makes sense for them to have the ability as well - under the same conditions, of course.

Catholics had their own Empire, which was HRE (even though it wasn´t Holy or Roman, but whatever). Empire of Romania (real name of Latin Empire) was not meant to be eastern part of Roman Empire, just replacement for what was called Empire of the Greeks by some people in the west.
People usually tend to misread historical situation and think that HRE was WRE and Byzantine Empire was ERE. But Byzantine Empire was actually Roman Empire, declared to be unified once again in 480 and HRE was considered to be the only Roman Empire by Catholics. They weren´t western and eastern part of one empire, which didn´t like each other, but both claimants to the same title. Just like China and Taiwan nowadays, they are both China, not Eastern and Western China.

 

[StarlightTW]

I rather like the idea of renaming it to Empire of Germania or something to that effect if the Roman Empire is restored. Since the Pope would be out of the picture and the schism mended.

 

[zijistark]

I rather like the idea of renaming it to Empire of Germania or something to that effect if the Roman Empire is restored. Since the Pope would be out of the picture and the schism mended.

So, BTW, this has long already been exactly what EMF already does.

 

[StarlightTW]

So, BTW, this has long already been exactly what EMF already does.

Did not know that, but then, I haven't actually played a Roman Restoration game since...well, IT'S BEEN AWHILE! -coughs-

 

[J.P.Cliffer]

As Byzantine Empire how can i do to get Pencheng Band who got the city of Samosata and is feodal and independant to give me that last city to get to tier 2 CB ? and cannot vassalise them not de jure king and same religion but different culture. Barony holding CB don't work on them

 

[Ecnahc]

Will an Emperor converting to say, Paulician, destroy the Byzantine title for "Greek Empire" or some such? This is an issue with CK2Plus's implementation I don't like. Destroying the title after being conquered by a Sunni makes sense, but would an Emperor already in power cause the Empire to disintegrate? Constantine seemed to do well when he converted the Empire to Christianity. It was still the Roman Empire after the conversion, was it not? And the Empire was very integrated into the pagan region with cults and feasts and such, the main argument for destroying the title for a Paulician conversion being how entwined the title is with Orthodox Christianity. At the very least, the religious groups an ERE Empire can be should be expanded. Converting the ERE Emperor to another religious group should be very hard, if not impossible though. I just don't think the title would change so much because an Emperor converts. Again, their capital was created by a Roman Emperor who converted the entire Empire and it was still the same title after he was done.

 

[DorlasAnther]

I´ve seen ERE going Catholic in this mod, so I doubt any mechanic like that is here.

 

[Ecnahc]

I´ve seen ERE going Catholic in this mod, so I doubt any mechanic like that is here.

Good point. It was the only issue I have had with the changes added in Plus, so I just wanted to make sure HIP doesn't work the same way.

 

[J.P.Cliffer]

Well i'm still orthodox and roma is orthodox so i need to convert to catholic and declare war to take that barony holding owned by mercenary. Well that is so wrong.

 

[zijistark]

In the next version (Zeus4), the Imperial Reconquest CB and tier system only requires that you have complete _county-level_ control of the successive Imperial Reconquest Tier regions. That is, the issue of random non-de-jure barony holders here and there is not something that will have to be handled to continue progressively restoring the Empire.

 

[Ecnahc]

In the next version (Zeus4), the Imperial Reconquest CB and tier system only requires that you have complete _county-level_ control of the successive Imperial Reconquest Tier regions. That is, the issue of random non-de-jure barony holders here and there is not something that will have to be handled to continue progressively restoring the Empire.

That's great! Those little baronies were always the biggest pest when restoring the Roman Empire.

 

[theStormWeaver]

All points noted. This is a good time for imperial-related suggestions & feedback, because an upcoming release-- either Zeus5 or Zeus6, probably Zeus5, whereas the currently available release is Zeus3, and Zeus4 will be released within a few days-- will be featuring the addition of a brand new imperial government form, things like palace coups, and a complete replacement for the CM DLC's viceroyalty system that's less buggy and a lot more fun all around. These and a few other reasons are why folks should think about imperial-related (any kind of empire-- not just ye olde ERE) feedback to contribute now so that it's not already a done deal by the time you've got feedback/suggestions, with me no doubt thoroughly tired of imperial stuff for a long while afterward.

Regarding your main thesis, the only big issue I see with requiring the HRE to be destroyed before claiming the Roman Empire title (something the ERE already does by default, but the rest of the world-- except Muslims, they definitely continued to refer to the Byzzies as Rome right up until they annexed Greece-- doesn't necessarily see it that way) is that, well, it's really damn hard to destroy the HRE. Making this a requirement implies more unmentioned mechanics changes to increase the capability of doing that (aside from getting really lucky on a marriage claim and waiting to press it), I think, and I don't exactly know what those would be.

What if you have to make the HRE a tribute? Force them to recognize your superiority.
The HRE could be destroyed after taking the decision to restore the empire.

 

[LordDamien]

In the next version (Zeus4), the Imperial Reconquest CB and tier system only requires that you have complete _county-level_ control of the successive Imperial Reconquest Tier regions. That is, the issue of random non-de-jure barony holders here and there is not something that will have to be handled to continue progressively restoring the Empire.

Any ETA on when Zeus4 is being released ?.

Also I love the HIP Mod.. very well done and I am enjoying it a lot.

 

[Ecnahc]

Any ETA on when Zeus4 is being released ?.

Also I love the HIP Mod.. very well done and I am enjoying it a lot.

My guess is this coming weekend. They were shooting for last weekend, then this weekend. There is a lot of stuff being added on to what is already a lot in the update, and recent changes have led to even more work being put into it.