Roman, Eastern Roman and Trebizond empire

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Robert de Bruce

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National identity was practically everything back then. Heck, it was proto-racism. The Romans hated everyone who wasn't a Latin, and declared them barbarians. They set out to conquer these barbarians and refused to grant them equal citizenship. What the Romans would've defined as being Roman is, basically, anyone born in Rome who speaks Latin. Later, they expanded their citizenship to all of Italy. Greeks and Egyptians came to be accepted. The Celts, Germans, and Spaniards were the last to see any sort of benefit from the Roman Empire, and they got it mostly just because Rome became Christian. The "Idea of Rome" that you speak of, the one you say is without precedent, is an idea shared by many other empires of the era. China had the exact same idea. Alexander had an idea pretty close. The Persians felt this way towards their nomadic neighbors.
This is completely wrong. We do not know much facts about the very early Rome, this is earlier than the Punic Wars. But also the little we know is that the citizenship even in these early times was not bent on Latins (which means people of Latium). In the early times, we have a minimum of 3 ethnic groups: Latins, Sabins and Tuscians, and especially the last two were highly represented among the leading families. In any later time, it was very easy to become roman citizen: serve in auxiliar troops or work for your family/city so that it is granted roman citizenship. So every family had the option to gain citizenship within 2 generations. Ofcourse, this was not strictly formalized in the first place, so it was full formalized in the early principate (30 B.C.). The same for former slaves: freedmen had not exactly the same status as freeborns, but their sons had and could even enter Senate.
We can see this in the examples of the dynasties ruling the empire. Traian and Hadrian were from Hispanic origins, the Severi dynasty came from Leptis Magna (today Libya) with punic roots, many of the so called soldier emperors of the third century came from the Balkans/Illyricum.
Plus, the term "barbarian" is greek. It does not fit on everyone outside the empire. For example the Persians were not considered barbarians.

If I were to ask any Roman emperor what his nation is, he'd probably just follow up with a question of "What is this 'nation' you speak of." As national identity has no meaning in those times and borders, well Rome as the only light in a world of darkness has no borders. Its just Rome and the uncivilized world outside it. Rome is not Christian, its not Greek, it takes whatever is beneficial and discards the rest, it is without precedent on what people are true Romans or what truly is Rome. Rome is the idea of an Empire incorporating all the lesser cultures under the banner of civilization.
You may argue, this point of view might be supported by vergil's "Aeneis", but this poem is strictly bound on Augustus ruling concept. There is no indication, Romans accepted it as their mission "to incorporate lesser cultures under banner of civilization." It is quite simple: This point of view of the Roman Empire is heavily influenced by the European ideas of the 19th century, especially nationalism and imperialism. Both were not Roman concepts. it is obvious that young nations like, for example, Italy wanted to look on Old Rome in a way they could legitimate themselves by constructing they are fulfilling the Roman legacy, especially if they could argue they are a reborn Rome. But this does not match Roman way of thinking. Romans were usually really pragmatic, so they did not try to conquer regions that were costly to take&control and relatively poor in an economic sense. For example, conquest of Ireland should have been something, Rome was able to do for centuries. They did not to it and they did not even try. Why should they go there, in this poor, far country? But given a motiavtion "incorporating all the lesser cultures under the banner of civilization", Romans would have tried and conquered Ireland for sure.
 
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I think they should be separate for the game, simply as an outsider reference.

Take for example modern day China and Taiwan, technically they are both China, but they are legally two separate countries and the rest of the world refers to Taiwan as Taiwan rather than China, even though it is China.

In EU4 it should be possible for any nation with legitimate claim (former Roman state), to take Rome and form the Empire of old, and destroying or conquering Byzantium shouldn't be a necessary requirement of that. So for clarity, we need two names, one for the Eastern part of the Roman Empire and one for the Western part of the Roman Empire.

Though personally, I would like to see a different name for the Western Roman Empire as well, then a reunification mission/event to combine West & East into one again for the full Roman Empire tag.

To be technical, the Western Roman Empire would be represented as the Holy Roman Empire. If not, then just "Western Roman Empire" would do.
 

Hikuran

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People argue about the continuity of Roman Empire here, great!
Similar topics can be seen in our Forum almost every week and a major conflict happens every month so we Chinese call this kind of thread Period. (a bit sexism but No offence from me personally)

In some views of historians the title of Roman Empire is just like any other. Like in Crusader Kings, you conquer the Duchy of York then you can lawfully seize the Title, Duke of York. No matter what culture, religion or way of seizing land. That why Osman claimed to have the heritage of Rome, though such claim from a Muslim is accepted by few. There were lots of Dynasties in China, most of them were ruled by Han people like Ming or Song, some by other races like Mancunians or Mongols in Qing or Yuan time, but China was still China as it is now, what has changed is just government type, ruling Houses and the size of its realms.

Other view Roman Empire a rather specific title like Kingdom of Jerusalem or Papacy, it can only be hold by a certain group of people or it cease to exist. So Roman Empire can only be Hellenic or Christian, held by Roman or Greeks or Latins. They have their own good reason to support this. In this game Papacy can be converted to Orthodoxy or even Shinto if u forced them to, but in fact none could. If Papacy is subjuatated by Byz or any other orthodoxy country, it would no longer be Papacy but Patriarchy of Rome. Same can be said to Roman Empire, the title can only be hold by few. A Κομνηνοί (Komnenoi) can hold it, a Παλαιολόγος (Palaiologos) too but not Osman
 
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This is completely wrong. We do not know much facts about the very early Rome, this is earlier than the Punic Wars. But also the little we know is that the citizenship even in these early times was not bent on Latins (which means people of Latium). In the early times, we have a minimum of 3 ethnic groups: Latins, Sabins and Tuscians, and especially the last two were highly represented among the leading families. In any later time, it was very easy to become roman citizen: serve in auxiliar troops or work for your family/city so that it is granted roman citizenship. So every family had the option to gain citizenship within 2 generations. Ofcourse, this was not strictly formalized in the first place, so it was full formalized in the early principate (30 B.C.). The same for former slaves: freedmen had not exactly the same status as freeborns, but their sons had and could even enter Senate.
We can see this in the examples of the dynasties ruling the empire. Traian and Hadrian were from Hispanic origins, the Severi dynasty came from Leptis Magna (today Libya) with punic roots, many of the so called soldier emperors of the third century came from the Balkans/Illyricum.
Plus, the term "barbarian" is greek. It does not fit on everyone outside the empire. For example the Persians were not considered barbarians.


You may argue, this point of view might be supported by vergil's "Aeneis", but this poem is strictly bound on Augustus ruling concept. There is no indication, Romans accepted it as their mission "to incorporate lesser cultures under banner of civilization." It is quite simple: This point of view of the Roman Empire is heavily influenced by the European ideas of the 19th century, especially nationalism and imperialism. Both were not Roman concepts. it is obvious that young nations like, for example, Italy wanted to look on Old Rome in a way they could legitimate themselves by constructing they are fulfilling the Roman legacy, especially if they could argue they are a reborn Rome. But this does not match Roman way of thinking. Romans were usually really pragmatic, so they did not try to conquer regions that were costly to take&control and relatively poor in an economic sense. For example, conquest of Ireland should have been something, Rome was able to do for centuries. They did not to it and they did not even try. Why should they go there, in this poor, far country? But given a motiavtion "incorporating all the lesser cultures under the banner of civilization", Romans would have tried and conquered Ireland for sure.

It was not until the Social War that the Italians gained full citizenship, and not until ~40 BCE that the Cisalpine Gauls got full citizenship. What you are talking about fits best as Provinciales, Peregrini, or, at best, Socii, who had to fight for their right to citizenship and it only covered Italy. Roman governance reached across the whole Mediterranean, of which the entirety of Spain, North Africa (outside of Egypt), Spain, Gaul/France, Britain, Germany, and Eastern Europe could be indisputably called barbarians. The places of debate would be Greece (Romans pillaged Greek cities and temples, and often distrusted Greeks even though they admired the culture), Egyptians (who the Romans had deep respect for), Jews (who the Romans absolutely did not get along with), and Persians (traditional enemies of Rome). If they were not barbarians, they were likely enemies of Rome anyways. Stating that the word "Barbarian" has a Greek origin is entirely pointless, as the concept reached far beyond Greek borders and existed across Eurasia between Italy and Japan. Even the Colonial Era had the same idea in the word "Savage".

Of these barbarians and enemies of Rome, very few would see full Roman citizenship. Foederati, often Celts and Germans, would offer military service in exchange for partial citizenship, making them second-class citizens in essence. The Sabines were killed in Roman genocides, and frequently came into violent conflict with the Romans. This gets even worse when you realize that the Samnites were a branch of Sabines, and the Samnites were hit very hard by Roman wars. The Etruscans, who you have dubbed "Tuscians", were the progenitors of Roman culture and, thus, did not suffer as much. However, they still were forced to undergo heavy Latinization that, by the Imperial era, they were almost extinct as a distinct ethnicity.

Again, those who fought for Rome were only granted partial citizenship, not full citizenship.

Rome was founded April 21, 753 BCE. The events you are discussing are actually much later history. It began as a kingdom led by Etruscan kings, with a primarily Latin populace. Then came the Republic. Finally came the empire. The Romans slowly had to adapt themselves once an empire to tolerate the mere existence of other cultures. Even still, frequent cultural conflicts arose between Jews and Romans, Celts and Romans, Africans and Romans, and even Persians and Romans. Nomadic tribes, likewise, had their share of conflict. The idea of Roman civilization was so strong, that it even outlasted the Western Roman Empire. For example, in 526, Cassiodorus wrote of how the Gauls finally became like Romans, instead of Celts:
"Finally you found Roman eloquence in regions that were not originally its own; and there the reading of Cicero rendered you eloquent where once the Gaulish language resounded"

Mind you, "Roman eloquence" refers to the Latin language.

It was not until the Constitutio Antoniniana in 212 CE/AD that all free people living in the Roman Empire were given full citizenship. The simple existence of non-Italian emperors proves nothing, as the period in question was a period of might-makes-right in which emperors were so frequently killed and replaced, that the Romans invented replaceable parts for statues so they could keep up. Note, however, that all Roman emperors adopted to Roman tradition, and took Latin names, rather than keeping Berber, Aramaic, Illyrian, or otherwise non-Roman names. You may also recognize the granting of citizenship to all people of the Roman Empire as happening about 260 years before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The math comes out to 1229 years after the founding of Rome, and so if we discount the Byzantine Empire as the Roman Empire (despite it rightfully holding the title without legitimate dispute), then the vast majority of the existence of the Roman Empire, especially while Rome was the capital, occurred in a period where minorities were not given full citizenship, if any citizenship at all.
 
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People argue about the continuity of Roman Empire here, great!
Similar topics can be seen in our Forum almost every week and a major conflict happens every month so we Chinese call this kind of thread Period. (a bit sexism but No offence from me personally)

In some views of historians the title of Roman Empire is just like any other. Like in Crusader Kings, you conquer the Duchy of York then you can lawfully seize the Title, Duke of York. No matter what culture, religion or way of seizing land. That why Osman claimed to have the heritage of Rome, though such claim from a Muslim is accepted by few. There were lots of Dynasties in China, most of them were ruled by Han people like Ming or Song, some by other races like Mancunians or Mongols in Qing or Yuan time, but China was still China as it is now, what has changed is just government type, ruling Houses and the size of its realms.

Other view Roman Empire a rather specific title like Kingdom of Jerusalem or Papacy, it can only be hold by a certain group of people or it cease to exist. So Roman Empire can only be Hellenic or Christian, held by Roman or Greeks or Latins. They have their own good reason to support this. In this game Papacy can be converted to Orthodoxy or even Shinto if u forced them to, but in fact none could. If Papacy is subjuatated by Byz or any other orthodoxy country, it would no longer be Papacy but Patriarchy of Rome. Same can be said to Roman Empire, the title can only be hold by few. A Κομνηνοί (Komnenoi) can hold it, a Παλαιολόγος (Palaiologos) too but not Osman

The Osmanoglu were crowned by the Patriarch of Constantinople, had intermarried with the Palaiologos, and took the title of "Roman Empire" under Mehmet II. They would've inherited it by all means, although they governed as a very different leadership. Due to blood relations, territorial claims, and seemingly religious support, I'd be willing to say the Ottomans continued the Byzantine Empire as their own, considering the Byzantines became the Despotate of Morea once Constantinople was taken (note that they are no longer an empire)
 
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DominusNovus

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Byzaninte is simply a convenience. Just like using the latin alphabet to write the name. Or referring Ming or Qing China as such. Or Germany instead of Deutchland. Or, if you're playing a Romance language copy, some form of Alemannia. The list goes on.

Here's the important part: When you say Byzantine Empire, your audience has a very good idea of what you're describing. Simply saying "Roman Empire" is more vague. Even for comtemporaries, once there are competing claims, there has to be terms of convenience.
 
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Hikuran

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The Osmanoglu were crowned by the Patriarch of Constantinople, had intermarried with the Palaiologos, and took the title of "Roman Empire" under Mehmet II. They would've inherited it by all means, although they governed as a very different leadership. Due to blood relations, territorial claims, and seemingly religious support, I'd be willing to say the Ottomans continued the Byzantine Empire as their own, considering the Byzantines became the Despotate of Morea once Constantinople was taken (note that they are no longer an empire)
That's exactly my view.
Mehmet II Osman had done almost everything except convert to
Christianity or change to a Greek name to have his rightful place in Roman Empire.
Still, for some people Roman Emperor can only be either pagan or Christian, not muslim o_O
 

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That's exactly my view.
Mehmet II Osman had done almost everything except convert to
Christianity or change to a Greek name to have his rightful place in Roman Empire.
Still, for some people Roman Emperor can only be either pagan or Christian, not muslim o_O

Hey, they changed religion once...

Now, the real question is: Who currently holds it? Does the Greek War of Independence give the title back to the Greeks (who are still called Romans by the Turks), or does the Ottoman Empire retain the title even so? If the Ottomans usurp the Byzantine throne, and then release Byzantium, who is the Roman Empire?

Damn you, Theseus!
 
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Marinaliteyears

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yeah. The ship of theseus comes to mind.

Its true that the Byzantine empire was for all intents, the remains of the original empire, only renamed historically because of the vastly different powerbase, I assume. (that, and because of the split in administration, even if that split was internal and not an actual split.)

That being said, I dont think that entirely discredits the more distant claims, either, Since ultimately, Continuity, Restoration, and Legitimacy are all only as valid as those interpreting, and those who can enforce them, and As we all know, pretenders can often obtain Titles that were probably not originally heading to them.
For example, the HRE comes to mind. While pretty far from what one might consider a true Roman successor state, they did have The big man himself saying the were! (God, Via the Pope, of course.) And there is disagreement, obviously, Especially in hindsight.

And that is without bringing up how the remains of the byzantine empire drifted further and further from the old ideas, Ending up a shadow of a shadow, especially when the game takes place, or how the Ottoman empire is actually in a great spot, continuity wise, to be the true successor state.

Bottom line? the idea of Succession is slightly artificial, and Im sure a clever Monarch with big dreams could create some facsimile of the old roman Empire, name it such, and basically become 'legitimate' Without the continuity. obviously, historians in the alt-future may even agree! (or not.)
 
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inunotaisho

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People argue about the continuity of Roman Empire here, great!
Similar topics can be seen in our Forum almost every week and a major conflict happens every month so we Chinese call this kind of thread Period. (a bit sexism but No offence from me personally)

Jumping in to a Balkan thread is a bit like parachuting into Afghanistan wrapped in an American flag :)
 
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Legionary Guard

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Hey, they changed religion once...

Now, the real question is: Who currently holds it? Does the Greek War of Independence give the title back to the Greeks (who are still called Romans by the Turks), or does the Ottoman Empire retain the title even so? If the Ottomans usurp the Byzantine throne, and then release Byzantium, who is the Roman Empire?

Damn you, Theseus!
The obvious answer here is that the title 'Emperor of Rome,' if it indeed fell into the hands of Mehmet the Conqueror (As opposed to a valid Russian claim, simply becoming defunct, or passing on to Constantine XI's brothers et cetera), finally became defunct when the Ottoman Empire was dissolved in 1922 with no valid imperial successor state (Turkey is a valid successor state, but is a republic).

The Kingdom of Greece claimed in pretense the title (Or at least I think they did), even if implicitly (via the Megali Idea), but could not back up those claims with any legitimacy because it lacked the historic capitol of the Empire, Constantinople.

But yes, I agree: when any discussion on Byzantium happens, that particular paradox quickly comes into play.
 
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Ratanka

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Ok, dear Paradox. Lets tell about what is Roman Empire. At first we should consider 395 AD. What is happening? Roman Empire is spliting for two Empires? No! In that year, no one couldn't have imagined that the state was split into two states. On the contrary, the separation was a purely legal way, by the will of the deceased emperor. Both parts are legally single, but actually divided the state continued to be aware of themselves as a single whole. There no Western Roman and Eastern Roman Empires. There were only Western and Eastern Parts of Empire.
And the authorities are parallel. And the Institute of consuls was divided between them: one consul in the West, the other in the East. It was too hard for one authority to rule.

Then the western part of the empire was absorbed by the barbarians. However, the Roman Empire continued to exist in another territory - in the East. Empire lost territrories in the west, NOT MORE happened. It is normal for any countries to lost territory. But in some reason u started call the Roman Empire as something else. It is only now we have come up with the terms - "Eastern Roman Empire", "The Byzantine Empire". In those days, did someone said so? Of course not. And the name of this state with its capital in Constantinople? "Roman" or later in the Greek pronunciation of "Romania". Until 600 year primary language was Latin. And everything about the government remained as Roman. After all, the state itself arose around Constantinople, the capital city of the Roman state.

Yes, social change began to occur. After all, the Greeks were the dominant people here. But the state remains the same. Direct continuity of Rome and Constantinople confirmed by law. The Empire was divided in 395. After 34 years, Eastern government organized a commission to collect and publish all the major laws adopted since 312, when Constantine the Great became August. The Commission has worked for 9 years. The result of her work was the Code of Theodosius, promulgated on February 15 East 438 years, and in the West (!) December 23 of the same year. As you can see, the Eastern Roman jurists gathered legislative practice throughout the empire, and brought it back in order. Then set up a code of laws has become common in the East, and on a completely independent (for 43 years) from him politically in the West. Such examples can be show in a large number. But it is not required. Too obvious inheritance statehood.

The Roman Empire. Is it a continuation of the Roman state in its republican form of government? Of course. Even considering that the evolution of the state bodies did not take place peacefully in an evolutionary way, but after the revolution, expressed in a series of bloody civil wars.
The Byzantine Empire (with all the controversy of the term) generally calm and peacefully evolved from the old Rome. But with fragments of "Byzantium", formed in 1204, is more difficult. There are Despotate of Epirus, Trebizond Empire and Empire of Nicaea. They are all separated parts of a single state body. After all, they appeared on the territory of the old empire. They created by people, which had a direct relation to the elite circles of the "Byzantine" population. Their socio-political struture absolutely copied from "Byzantine". No one will argue that Empire of Nicaea - it's the same "Byzantium". A Trebizond not - only because he did not subsequently took Constantinople? Or for some other reason? About Trebizond: I want to say that Trebizond MUST be the empire too in game. And you cant give me any arguments against this.
Little about Trebizond Empire. Trebizond was able to save themselves during 200 years. But how this small empire could? The Trebizond Emperors gave their daughters for marriages with many Turkish clans and states. And on 1444-1461 their defenders were Aq-qoyunlu. But Osmans threatened to attack them if Aq-qoyunlu start to defend Trebizond. So there must be also alliance between aq-qoyunlu and Trebizond.

So, you must rename "Byzantine" to Roman Empire and delete new decision to form Roman Empire from Byz.
Statehood is not assigned by out and from future. And cant call this Empire as Byzantium.

Your possible questions.

1) Q:But Roman("Byzantine") Empire not same like he was in 5th century.

A:Yes! And thats normal for any country. Passed 1000 year. Roman Empire also not same as republic. I explained before.

2)Q:Byzantine Empire is Byzantine Empire, you fool.
A:in which year there appeared "non-Roman" Byzantine Empire? In which year there are new controls that are not heirs Roman authorities? Representatives and successors of which state by they were created?

3)Q: In any case this is not Roman Empire, you fool.
A:The term "Roman" Empire has a primarily institutional character, and not ethnic. If we take the era of escalating the republic into an empire, we see the spread of Roman citizenship to virtually in all of Italy. There were many tribes in Italy. In 212 the Edict of Caracalla turned into a "Roman" all the free inhabitants of the empire, regardless of whether they were Italians, Greeks or Egyptians. So Greeks is Also Romans. After 2 years when they changed primary language - It was the evolution of the state. And not the replacement of one State by another. And same with will changes. Legally he fully became a Roman when Roman Western part destroyed. And he never legally stopped to be Roman Empire. NEVER.

4) Q:But what with Empire of Charlmagne and HRE? Maybe they had more rights to be the Roman Empire.
A:So worth it Charlemagne to declare himself emperor of Rome (with conquering this city), and he immediately became heir of the ancient emperors? And Frankish state had already existed for several centuries and had its own history.
Calling himself as someone else doesn't mean to be him. You understand. Frankish state has not allocated from the Roman, as was the case with the "Byzantine". HRE is heir of Frankish empire, so same. They only conquered Rome, and not more at all. After, HRE even didnt have a Rome.

we had this thread like 1 billion times ... can you just stop this plz ? just dont even try to argue because everything is argued in the past
ur wrong it will not change it wont happen
why ?
look in the other 999 threads with this topic
 
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