Roman, Eastern Roman and Trebizond empire

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LeKaiser

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No. The Pope crowning Karl der Gross as Imperator would make this a continuation to the Roman Empire only if the Pope crowning the Imperator/Basileus was a critical component of the legitimate succession as leader of that polity and an integral part of the continuity of that polity. This was not the case. In fact, the reverse was true - becoming the Bishop of Rome required imperial approval from the Roman Emperor/Basileus Rhomaion as late as Pope Zachary.

Sure, but the succession of the Roman Empire is something that worked in quite a number of different ways over time. Selection by the Senate, the will of the dead Emperor, acclaim by the legions, or buying the position by auction from the Praetorian Guard were all at different points in time sources of 'legitimacy' in the question of Roman succession. There's no particular critical component of the legitimate succession other than maybe overwhelming force, which is certainly on your side if you've conquered the sheer amount of territory required to restore the Empire in the upcoming patch.
 
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CrabHelmet

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Sure, but the succession of the Roman Empire is something that worked in quite a number of different ways over time. Selection by the Senate, the will of the dead Emperor, acclaim by the legions, or buying the position by auction from the Praetorian Guard were all at different points in time sources of 'legitimacy' in the question of Roman succession. There's no particular critical component of the legitimate succession other than maybe overwhelming force, which is certainly on your side if you've conquered the sheer amount of territory required to restore the Empire in the upcoming patch.

This is true. My argument was always that to be a continuation or restoration of something, there needs to be a clear continuity - see the Ship of Theseus. I never bought the principle that succession is sufficient, and I was simply pointing out that even if it was, the succession method by which Leo III supposedly made Karl Emperor was insufficient anyway. The principle of continuity is why only what is called in-game the Byzantine Empire is really a continuation of the Roman Empire. Only states which are themselves successors to the Byzantines could ever restore the Roman Empire if it were to fall (i.e., Trebizond).

Now, it is true that any sufficiently powerful country could call itself the Roman Empire... the same way it could call itself the Confederacy of Zog, or the United States of Rick and Morty Is a Really Good Show, on the basis that it has the power to stop others telling it otherwise. That wouldn't be "restoring the Roman Empire" (and it certainly wouldn't bring about the Roman culture of approximately 400 AD nor cause the 'national ideas', such as we're capable of talking about such things, to be those of the Roman Empire of approximately 400 AD), because there is nothing you could restore other than a name. It would simply be a farce.

I mean, if you want evidence, the Holy Roman Empire is example enough, because it is de facto what we are talking about. Karl der Gross was so powerful he persuaded the Pope to crown him Roman Emperor, but that never made the German people Romans, never revived Latin, never caused Germany to adopt Roman institutions, never meant that Germany's national consciousness identified with that of the Roman Empire. It was just a name (hence Voltaire's famous proclamation).
 
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Bella Gerant

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So make the Byzantine Empire called Rome and Trebizond be a separate empire with ambitions to retake Rome?

Also, the Byzantines weren't considered Romans by the Western nations, which is part of what the tag names indicate. Being the Roman Empire indicates general acknowledgement of being the Empire itself. At least, that's what I got from this whole affair. Sure, the Eastern Romans called themselves the only Rome but, without implicit and engrained acknowledgement of that fact (which was removed IRL due to the Pope and Charlesmagne and the Empress, stuff happened, yup), the only way to enforce that is militarily, which is what the territorial requirements is representative of.

Likewise, a successor to Rome can be an entirely different empire with weak claims as long as they can enforce them. The idea of Rome went from being an empire to becoming THE empire. Russia, the Ottomans, Italy, Romania, etc. If anyone was actually strong enough to conquer all of old Rome's territory, I doubt there would've been much opposition to that particular nation labelling itself "Rome"
 
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CrabHelmet

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When they weren't being deliberately insulting (i.e., when they wanted to make a diplomatic address) the official term for the Byzantine Empire amongst the West was Imperator Romaniae. That's still a slight dig, because it literally means Empire of Romania rather than the Roman Empire, but in general they were acknowledged as the Emperors of the East.
 
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Robert de Bruce

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In this thread, many things are merged or unprecise or halftrue. To start with the most important, let's take a closer look on the concept of legitimacy.

To rule people, you need to convince them to follow you without resistance. Ofcourse you can force some people to act as you want and you can kill others. But you will always need people to force others, you can't force them all. That is why humans invented the concept of legitimacy, which means a design who is allowed to rule and who not. But in fact, there is not one single concept of legitimacy, but many, many, many of them, all of them bound to certain cultural, religious ideas, beliefs etc.
The relevant thing for all these different concepts of legitimacy is if people accept it or not. If you look at this thread from this point of view, you have to say, the claim of Charlemagne to become the Roman Emperor in 800 was accepted by the people of his realm. And these were the guys it was important for Charlemagne that they accepted it. He did not have to care if the eastern emperor or anyone else outside his realm accepted it.
Another important aspect of legitimacy is, that in nearly every concept something is included that relies on "tradition", "what the forefathers did" etc, generally spoken, something historic. But it is not needed that the "tradition" needs to be historical accurat. So very often, if not always, something is invented or interpreted in a way that it better fits for the concept of legitimacy. This phenomenon is called "invention fo tradition" by historians.
So it is rather pointless to discuss if something was "fake" or "legitime" in regard of Charlemagne, the Byzantine Empire or something else.
 
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Pellucid

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I'd like to at least see the Byzantines get an easier way of becoming Rome than everyone else, since they have the most obvious claim. Just stabilizing themselves and reclaiming Rome and most of the boot really ought to be enough for the Byzantines to take the mantle.
 
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inunotaisho

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Tired of hearing Balkanites saying the Byzantines was the inheritor of Rome. Their image of "Rome" is a Orthodox christian empire. Now, Rome is not an inheritable title for whatever mediterranean empire and it is not bound to Christianity, something especially the Greeks believe it is.

Rome is an idea. An idea where a superior culture rules over the barbarians and was the foundation for European imperialism.
Today Greeks shout "Roman" just to gain credence in their delusioned belief that their hellenistic culture is Roman and somehow superior. Its nationalistic wank, its all it is.
 
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LeKaiser

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This is true. My argument was always that to be a continuation or restoration of something, there needs to be a clear continuity - see the Ship of Theseus. I never bought the principle that succession is sufficient, and I was simply pointing out that even if it was, the succession method by which Leo III supposedly made Karl Emperor was insufficient anyway. The principle of continuity is why only what is called in-game the Byzantine Empire is really a continuation of the Roman Empire. Only states which are themselves successors to the Byzantines could ever restore the Roman Empire if it were to fall (i.e., Trebizond).

Now, it is true that any sufficiently powerful country could call itself the Roman Empire... the same way it could call itself the Confederacy of Zog, or the United States of Rick and Morty Is a Really Good Show, on the basis that it has the power to stop others telling it otherwise. That wouldn't be "restoring the Roman Empire" (and it certainly wouldn't bring about the Roman culture of approximately 400 AD nor cause the 'national ideas', such as we're capable of talking about such things, to be those of the Roman Empire of approximately 400 AD), because there is nothing you could restore other than a name. It would simply be a farce.

I mean, if you want evidence, the Holy Roman Empire is example enough, because it is de facto what we are talking about. Karl der Gross was so powerful he persuaded the Pope to crown him Roman Emperor, but that never made the German people Romans, never revived Latin, never caused Germany to adopt Roman institutions, never meant that Germany's national consciousness identified with that of the Roman Empire. It was just a name (hence Voltaire's famous proclamation).

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think that the Holy Roman Empire could really be considered a successor, for exactly the reasons you outlined. I guess the point is that the decision to restore the Empire and the resulting in-game effects represent the player doing exactly what you're pointing out Karl never did - restoring Roman institutions and culture.
 
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mudcrabmerchant

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Byzantium is totally acceptable, this game doesn't entirely operate on endonyms. I'd prefer if it was "Roman Empire", provided we didn't have a formable by that name, but now we do.

As others have stated, if you're going to get the entire damn world to recognize you as the one and only Roman Empire, you probably need to eliminate all the other guys with a serious claim. With the HRE, the West is still going to view the Constantinopolitan empire as, at best, a co-equal. And of course Constantinople has full continuity, although honestly I don't see anyone, except maybe the Orthodox world, caring at all about their claim if another country owns almost all of the Mediterranean, and Constantinople owns nothing beyond the decaying walls.

In other words, the status quo is completely fine, and Byzantium requires no further attention, except maybe moving the start date up to 1453.
 
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IdiotsOpposite

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And of course Constantinople has full continuity, although honestly I don't see anyone, except maybe the Orthodox world, caring at all about their claim if another country owns almost all of the Mediterranean, and Constantinople owns nothing beyond the decaying walls.

You need to own all of Byzantium's 1444 territory to claim the title anyway. If they're somehow alive despite that, good on them.
 

CrabHelmet

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Yeah, absolutely. I don't think that the Holy Roman Empire could really be considered a successor, for exactly the reasons you outlined. I guess the point is that the decision to restore the Empire and the resulting in-game effects represent the player doing exactly what you're pointing out Karl never did - restoring Roman institutions and culture.

But those things (restoring Roman institutions and culture) are just impossibilities. As a king, you'd be looked at as a madman if you tried bringing about the SPQR (most of your nobility would probably revolt outright if you tried placing them in the Senate of the late empire as barring the absolute monarchies they had more legal capacity through their fiefs than e.g. the late Senate which was a municipal body). Bringing back the legions, a way of fighting totally unsuited to any point in the EU4 time frame, would be similarly crazy. You'd never be able to recreate Roman "culture" - how on earth would you get the 80 million people in this territory to start speaking Latin (when most of them are illiterate and Latin only continues as a written language)? how would you get them to wear togas? how would you disenfranchise all the freedmen back to the status of plebians without immediate revolution? how would you bring back the venerations despite their now anti-Christian nature? The idea that a single person, even an absolute monarch could do this, is madness. Rome of 400 AD is dead. There's no restoring it.

Now, my personal opinion is that EU4 suffers enough anyway by starting at 1444. I'm quite happy to start as late as 1492 and I think the game might be the better for it. I'm not a Byzantophile, and I'm not particularly concerned about the Roman Empire as an entity before the East-West split either; I think both have had far too much attention for a game that's about the early modern development of nation-states. However, Paradox's decision to allow the formation of the Roman Empire is ridiculous. The Roman Empire already exists (in fact they dragged the game's start back from 1453 specifically for it); and there is no need to put in this formation decision other than to appease people with a particularly poor conception of history who get a weird kick out of seeing SPQR on a shield.
 
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Tired of hearing Balkanites saying the Byzantines was the inheritor of Rome. Their image of "Rome" is a Orthodox christian empire. Now, Rome is not an inheritable title for whatever mediterranean empire and it is not bound to Christianity, something especially the Greeks believe it is.

Rome is an idea. An idea where a superior culture rules over the barbarians and was the foundation for European imperialism.
Today Greeks shout "Roman" just to gain credence in their delusioned belief that their hellenistic culture is Roman and somehow superior. Its nationalistic wank, its all it is.
... As someone who is neither a Greek, nor a 'Balkanite' (Whatever that is), nor an Orthodox Christian, I'm gonna have to call BS on your rant there.

First off, we're not saying that Byzantium is the inheritor of Rome. We're saying that the Roman Empire and the entity referred to today as 'Byzantium' are literally one and the same. The Eastern Roman Empire, as it was upon the final split at the death of Emperor Theodosius the Great in 395 CE, was an administrative part of the wider empire, as was the Western half. Neither half held any greater claim to being the 'true' Rome; in fact, the Roman Senate even abolished the Western throne in 476 CE (When Augustulus was deposed), decreeing that, quote, 'the majesty of a sole monarch is sufficient to pervade and protect, at the same time, both the East and the West. In their own name, and in the name of the people, they consent that the seat of universal empire shall be transferred from Rome to Constantinople.' ('Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire,' Edward Gibbon, page 639 [Total Extinction of the Western Empire] - at least, 639 in my particular copy) As the Roman Senate continued to operate until at least 1204, combined with the fact that Theodosius was Emperor of the East before he was Sole Emperor (and that his eldest son took the East after his death), a case could even be made that the Eastern Empire - 'Byzantium' - was, in fact, more legitimate than any Western pretender.

So no. The idea that 'Byzantium' is the sad delusion of a few Greeks is, quite frankly, preposterous. And... what is this, 'Rome is an idea'? I'm sure that Augustus and Trajan would be glad to know that they were only ruling over an 'idea' rather than a concrete nation.
 
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... As someone who is neither a Greek, nor a 'Balkanite' (Whatever that is), nor an Orthodox Christian, I'm gonna have to call BS on your rant there.

First off, we're not saying that Byzantium is the inheritor of Rome. We're saying that the Roman Empire and the entity referred to today as 'Byzantium' are literally one and the same. The Eastern Roman Empire, as it was upon the final split at the death of Emperor Theodosius the Great in 395 CE, was an administrative part of the wider empire, as was the Western half. Neither half held any greater claim to being the 'true' Rome; in fact, the Roman Senate even abolished the Western throne in 476 CE (When Augustulus was deposed), decreeing that, quote, 'the majesty of a sole monarch is sufficient to pervade and protect, at the same time, both the East and the West. In their own name, and in the name of the people, they consent that the seat of universal empire shall be transferred from Rome to Constantinople.' ('Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire,' Edward Gibbon, page 639 [Total Extinction of the Western Empire] - at least, 639 in my particular copy) As the Roman Senate continued to operate until at least 1204, combined with the fact that Theodosius was Emperor of the East before he was Sole Emperor (and that his eldest son took the East after his death), a case could even be made that the Eastern Empire - 'Byzantium' - was, in fact, more legitimate than any Western pretender.

So no. The idea that 'Byzantium' is the sad delusion of a few Greeks is, quite frankly, preposterous. And... what is this, 'Rome is an idea'? I'm sure that Augustus and Trajan would be glad to know that they were only ruling over an 'idea' rather than a concrete nation.

Sure Byzans inherited lands of east Rome, but it was not the same as the idea of Rome. Byzantium was a hellenistic orthodox christian empire, a big change away from Rome. Rome as a "Roman empire" had disappared due to Christianity as it started excluding citizens cause of their religion

If I were to ask any Roman emperor what his nation is, he'd probably just follow up with a question of "What is this 'nation' you speak of." As national identity has no meaning in those times and borders, well Rome as the only light in a world of darkness has no borders. Its just Rome and the uncivilized world outside it. Rome is not Christian, its not Greek, it takes whatever is beneficial and discards the rest, it is without precedent on what people are true Romans or what truly is Rome. Rome is the idea of an Empire incorporating all the lesser cultures under the banner of civilization.
 
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They call it Byzantine because it's common historiographical term and it is how historians used to call this state. For example, Muscovy is in reality called Grand Principality of Moscow.
Also we can use "Byzantine even didnt have a Rome" argument (or loss of Rome for 6 centuries still makes them Romans?).

The Western Roman Empire had its capital at Mediolanum, not Rome. Plus, Constantine changed the capital to Constantinople anyways, meaning they held on to the Roman capital until 1453.

So make the Byzantine Empire called Rome and Trebizond be a separate empire with ambitions to retake Rome?

Also, the Byzantines weren't considered Romans by the Western nations, which is part of what the tag names indicate. Being the Roman Empire indicates general acknowledgement of being the Empire itself. At least, that's what I got from this whole affair. Sure, the Eastern Romans called themselves the only Rome but, without implicit and engrained acknowledgement of that fact (which was removed IRL due to the Pope and Charlesmagne and the Empress, stuff happened, yup), the only way to enforce that is militarily, which is what the territorial requirements is representative of.

Likewise, a successor to Rome can be an entirely different empire with weak claims as long as they can enforce them. The idea of Rome went from being an empire to becoming THE empire. Russia, the Ottomans, Italy, Romania, etc. If anyone was actually strong enough to conquer all of old Rome's territory, I doubt there would've been much opposition to that particular nation labelling itself "Rome"

The Byzantines were not only a continuation, but they were recognized by everything from Bulgaria to China. Eastern Europe, the Turks and Muslims, and all the way to the Ming (who didn't even know that Byzantium had lost Antioch, it had been so long since the two countries had met) recognized it as the Roman Empire. Both the Russians and the Ottomans built their claims not on territory, but on the fact that each of them had legitimate claim to the Byzantine throne. While the Ottomans would be the official inheritors, having been crowned by the Patriarch, having intermarried many times with Byzantines, and declaring themselves officially the Roman Empire upon taking Constantinople, they would hold the title by any given succession laws. Russia would be a strong claimant, but the Ottomans would've been the direct heirs.

The whole reason the Ottomans did what they did was to reform the Roman Empire under Islam.

Sure Byzans inherited lands of east Rome, but it was not the same as the idea of Rome. Byzantium was a hellenistic orthodox christian empire, a big change away from Rome. Rome as a "Roman empire" had disappared due to Christianity as it started excluding citizens cause of their religion

If I were to ask any Roman emperor what his nation is, he'd probably just follow up with a question of "What is this 'nation' you speak of." As national identity has no meaning in those times and borders, well Rome as the only light in a world of darkness has no borders. Its just Rome and the uncivilized world outside it. Rome is not Christian, its not Greek, it takes whatever is beneficial and discards the rest, it is without precedent on what people are true Romans or what truly is Rome. Rome is the idea of an Empire incorporating all the lesser cultures under the banner of civilization.

Because the Romans never denied anyone citizenship based on certain habits.

National identity was practically everything back then. Heck, it was proto-racism. The Romans hated everyone who wasn't a Latin, and declared them barbarians. They set out to conquer these barbarians and refused to grant them equal citizenship. What the Romans would've defined as being Roman is, basically, anyone born in Rome who speaks Latin. Later, they expanded their citizenship to all of Italy. Greeks and Egyptians came to be accepted. The Celts, Germans, and Spaniards were the last to see any sort of benefit from the Roman Empire, and they got it mostly just because Rome became Christian. The "Idea of Rome" that you speak of, the one you say is without precedent, is an idea shared by many other empires of the era. China had the exact same idea. Alexander had an idea pretty close. The Persians felt this way towards their nomadic neighbors. There is a very clear precedent for the way Rome behaved, and the idea of empire was hardly a Roman innovation. Empires are, by definition, multiethnic. Here:

a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.

Would you deny that the Roman Empire, as a country, simply ceased to exist entirely upon Constantine's conversion. Did the throne simply disappear, the authority dissolved? Did Constantine's conversion alone, with not a single other factor, mean that all of Italy and Greece were left without any leadership at all for centuries?

The fact that the Romans enforced Latin customs across their empire should be proof enough that they had a defined identity. The Gauls were made to the French. The Celtiberians and the Basques became the Spaniards (Except for those in modern Basque Country). Dacians became Romanians. Illyrians became the Albanians (light Latin influences) and the Dalmatians (heavy Latin influences).

The Romans slaughtered Celts en masse, burned down entire cities, expelled the Jews from their homeland, and committed outright genocide against Carthaginians (Phoenicians in Africa). It wasn't until much much later that the Romans became a pan-ethnic empire, although by that point it was largely full of Latinized peoples. Those who remained were tolerated, and the Byzantines continued this better than anyone else.

If you asked a Roman emperor what his nation was, he would say thus:

"My nation is Rome, my people the Latins. We are the sons of Mars, bred for war against the barbarians that surround us. Celts, Germans, Iberians, Numidians, Persians, they all defy civilization. I live my life by Roman law, I heed advice from the consuls, and I know my heritage as any Roman should. I do not let the barbarians stain me. Not even their food shall enter the gates of Rome, on penalty of death. My nation is Rome, and I am a Roman."

Now, here's a direct quote from Constantine XI Palaiologos:

I know the countless hordes of the impious will advance against us, according to their custom, violently, confidently and with great courage and force in order to overwhelm and wear out our few defenders with hardship. They attempt to frighten us with loud yells and innumerable battle cries. But you are all familiar with their chattering and I need say no more about it. For a long time they will continue so and will also release over us countless rocks, all sorts of arrows and missiles, like the sand of the sea. But I hope that such things will not harm us; I see, greatly rejoice, and nourish with hopes in my mind that even if we are few, you are all experienced and seasoned warriors- courageous, brave, and well prepared. Protect your heads with shields in combat and battle. Keep your right hand, armed with the sword, extended in front of you at all times. Your helmets, breastplates and suits of armor are fully sufficient together with your other weapons and will prove very effective in battle. Our enemies have no and use no such weapons. You are protected inside the walls, while they will advance without cover and with toil.
For these reasons, my fellow soldiers, prepare yourselves, be firm, and remain valiant, for the pity of God, Take your example from the few elephants of the Carthaginians and how they dispersed the numerous cavalry of the Romans with their noise and appearance. If one dumb beast put another to flight, we, the masters of horses and animals, can surely even do better against our advancing enemies, since they are dumb animals, worse even than pigs. Present your shield, swords, arrows, and spears to them, imagining that you are a hunting party after wild boars, so that the impious may learn that they are dealing not with dumb animals but with their lords and masters, the descendants of the Greeks and the Romans.
 
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The name "Roman Empire" comes from the capital city "Rome", ERE moved the capital to Byzantium which is why it's called "Byzantine Empire". Just the same logic. I suppose they could've gone for Constantine Empire as they changed the name.. but it's not just pure imagination, even if they would refer to themselves differently. I do however I think it's important to make a difference between the old Roman Empire and Byzantium. They were very different, even so just prior to the end of the Western Roman Empire. If anything you could say that neither WRE or ERE truely held claim to the roman empire, they were both shadows of the past. The true Roman Empire is not Catholic or Orthodox, but Pagan.
 
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Sure Byzans inherited lands of east Rome, but it was not the same as the idea of Rome. Byzantium was a hellenistic orthodox christian empire, a big change away from Rome. Rome as a "Roman empire" had disappared due to Christianity as it started excluding citizens cause of their religion
And you think before Christianity the Empire accepted more people?
 
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The Roman Empire was still easily culturally, linguistically, and religiously (up to Constantine the Great) similar (if not completely identical) to the Roman Republic.

Byzantium on the other hand was culturally different, spoke Greek instead of Latin, and were religiously different (west is catholic, east was orthodox). Especially in EU4 terms, the Byzantines are distinct enough to be a separate tag from the Romans.
Greek had always been an important language in the Roman empire and was the dominant language in the eastern parts of it, and when the western Roman empire still existed the great schism hadnt happened yet. Catholicism only exists because the bishop of Rome wanted to be independent from the emperor, a united Roman empire would never have allowed that and thus was more likely to be orthodox than catholic.
 
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The common argument when studying Roman history in regards to imperial separation reminds me of the Theseus's Ship paradox. It just winds up moot and i just consider the audiance when I make a reference of any sort. For gameplay sakes I like Byzantine and Roman Empire having separate identities .
 
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inunotaisho

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And you think before Christianity the Empire accepted more people?

Rather than accepted more people, it was far more inclusive. By not opposing religions in the conquered lands they kept stability in the Empire. In the case of Christianity it was more like the Christians opposed the Empire as they denied the existance of all other gods, thus putting them at odds with the Empires other religions and only served to promote instability.
 

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I think they should be separate for the game, simply as an outsider reference.

Take for example modern day China and Taiwan, technically they are both China, but they are legally two separate countries and the rest of the world refers to Taiwan as Taiwan rather than China, even though it is China.

In EU4 it should be possible for any nation with legitimate claim (former Roman state), to take Rome and form the Empire of old, and destroying or conquering Byzantium shouldn't be a necessary requirement of that. So for clarity, we need two names, one for the Eastern part of the Roman Empire and one for the Western part of the Roman Empire.

Though personally, I would like to see a different name for the Western Roman Empire as well, then a reunification mission/event to combine West & East into one again for the full Roman Empire tag.