Roman classes and plebians and patricians

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stratigo

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Reading through the latest dev diary the number of people (including johan) who equate plebeian with lower class and patrician with upper class is making me tear my hair out and despair the state of education in history that so many people make this mistake. Wikipedia isn’t a good source, specifically on this issue

The divide between Patricians and plebeians in Roman history dominated the Roman kingdom and early republic and did originally involve class issues. Patricians were descendants of the most important (and often mythological) Roman families and held rights to political power that the plebs did not have. However this situation did not in fact last. A series of revolts, strikes, and conflict between the plebs and patricians slowly eroded patrician political dominance. The last major pleb revolt in Roman history occurs roughly twenty years into the game

Throughout the entirety of the game period the political and economic power of patricians and plebs were almost entirely the same. There are a handful of political offices reserved for patricians and a handful reserved for plebs (tribune of the plebs was one of the most powerful Roman offices. More so that patrician reserved ones until sulla neutered it)

The dominant expression of class in Roman history, particularly the period the game covers, are the census Ordos. I am sure most people are aware of the Roman census, but probably not what it meant. The Roman census gathered data (semi accurately) on all Roman citizens and assigned them a class. This class was based, originally, of how said citizen could equip themselves for war, but by the period of the game was based on the estimated value and income of the citizen’s property

There is an exception that in the period of the game both the senatorial and equites classes had the same wealth requirements, with the senatorial class requiring familial connection to a senator (this would be changed in the reign of, IIRC Augustus, where the cost of being in the senatorial class was raised). He senatorial class would consist of romans involved at the highest level of politics, which would also usually mean romans connected to military command as well. The Roman senate was not a directly elected body, nor did it have a large amount of official power in the Roman constitution. However many Roman offices came with a seat on the senate (some of them only granted the seat after the end of the term on office) and senators could hold most (not all) offices. The senate was the collection of Roman power brokers.

The equites would be he wealthiest romans not directly connected to the senate. They would dominate provincial politics though and represent the highest Roman officials outside the immediate environs of Rome. Also they traditionally provided the cavalry for the Roman army

The next five classes were the primary military classes. These people usually worked farms of various sizes, some of them on state owned lands, and the proceeds of these farms (or their craft business for a small population of them working as, say, a smith) would be what detormined their exact ordo. They were also expected to self equip and serve in the Roman military when required. The wealthiest of this group tended to provide cavalry, the poorest provided skirmishers and other lighter infantry since they could not afford the cost of heavier equipment

The last class was made up of romans who had no property and were too poor for military service. This was the proletariat, and it actually made up the bulk of the population of Rome itself. It is thus ironic that this class would, after the Marian reforms, suddenly provide the bulk of Roman manpower after Roman aristocrats were allowed to pay for equipping them.
 

Captain Frakas

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As for modifying in new POP, I would go to:
Senators
Knights
Decurions
Wealthy Plebeians (triarii, principes)
Poor Plebeians (hastatii, leves, velites, accensi)
Miserable Plebeians (proletarians, turba)
Free Men (peregrines, socials, Latins, federated, freed men, free barbarians)
Servile Men (colons, public slaves, imperial slaves, urban slaves, agriculture slaves, mining slaves)

Better names can certainly be found...

Senators and Knights would become Decurions in conquered territories.
The three plebeians classes would become either Free Men or Servile Men in conquered territories, depending of the context.

Servile men would be allowed to be promoted to Free Men; Free Men to one of the three classes of plebeians or to decurions; miserable plebeians to poor plebeians; poor plebeians to wealthy plebeians; wealthy plebeians and decurions to knights; knights to senators.
 
Last edited:

DanubianCossak

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It seems to me like the process worked with them coming up with a core system (pops, their number and how the work) and then assigning stuff like labels within that pre set system.

At this point i think the chances of the system being redesigned are basically 0, so at best what you might be able to do is get them to change names of stuff.

If you can come up with a simple suggestion in format of X > Y + explanation as to why, that might give you the best chance of stuff being changed.
 

stratigo

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As for modifying in new POP, I would go to:
Senators
Knights
Decurions
Wealthy Plebeians (triarii, principes)
Poor Plebeians (hastatii, leves, velites, accensi)
Miserable Plebeians (proletarians, turba)
Free Men (peregrines, socials, Latins, federated, freed men)
Servile Men (colons, public slaves, imperial slaves, urban slaves, agriculture slaves, mining slaves)

Better names can certainly be found...

Senators and Knights would become Decurions in conquered territories.
The three plebeians classes would become either Free Men or Servile Men in conquered territories, depending of the context.

Servile men would be allowed to be promoted to Free Men; Free Men to one of the three classes of plebeians; miserable plebeians to poor plebeians; poor plebeians to wealthy plebeians; wealthy plebeians and decurions to knights.
I swear you did not read my post man. You’re STILL using pleb wrong. Please stop. It’s literally in my OP. It’s the point of what I wrote
 

Captain Frakas

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I swear you did not read my post man. You’re STILL using pleb wrong. Please stop. It’s literally in my OP. It’s the point of what I wrote

How so? I am curious to know how do you come to this conclusion... I do not use plebeian wrong... There was wealthy and poor plebeians, and many plebeians were part of the upper society.
 
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Captain Frakas

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The main point is that patricians are not Roman upper class and plebeians are not lower class. Your hypothesized pops start going “upper plebs, middle plebs, lower plebs” and that is straight wrong

First, I didn't even used the word "patrician" nor "Roman upper class", nor "upper plebs", nor "middle plebs", nor "lower plebs" so I don't get what you talk about... Please put your binoculars before reading posts...

Secondly, obviously plebeians weren't all part of the lower class, the simple fact that I put "wealthy plebeians" among pops explicitly state that those aren't a lower class.

Third, your implied allegation, if what you intend to mean is that there wouldn't be important wealth divide between plebeians, would be in direct contradiction with Paul Veyne's Greco-Roman Empire, (and I believe it make some academic authority, but I am open to read your contradicting sources).

In a chapter specifically about plebeians, P. Veyne stated that there were wealthy plebeians, sometime very wealthy (and obviously poor plebeians too). Arguably it could even be said there was what we can broadly label a "middle class", albeit the word isn't much proper for Ancient times. He argue that it is much erroneous to see the plebs as a monolithic class, like you, alas, do now (but like you goodly avoided to do in your original post).
 
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Captain Frakas

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Ah, yes... it wasn't clear in his post, but I now get it.

I should had wrote wealthy, poor and miserable civilians, rather than wealthy, poor and miserable plebeian... as patricians weren't very numerous, I didn't bothered to consider them in my list, but nevertheless they indeed existed and civilian is a more including label (better than plebeians as all citizens weren't plebeians, but also better than citizens as all civilians weren't citizens: women and very young adults in Athens, for example, weren't).

But as I've said, better names can be found.
 
Last edited:

Borgratz

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As a latin teacher, I approve of this thread :)


Nobility
Citizens
Tribesmen
Slaves

or their latin translations should work just fine for most countries, I think? No real reason to shoehorn latin phrases into the system, if you don't really care about what they actually mean.
 

Captain Frakas

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The problem with those names might be that nobles were citizens and that both nobles and citizens had tribes. So you'll have to add an adjective to those both.

Also, there was wealthy or powerful citizens who weren't nobles, because, like the patriceship, nobility constitute a birth distinction.

if we want to keep the four vanilla pop, and to make them most inclusive, I presume it would be:
Citizens->Notables
Freemen->Vulgar civilians
Tribesmen->Free foreigners
Slaves->Servile men

But, from the point of view of a modification, having more distinction among civilian POPs would be quite interesting, in my humble opinion.
 
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Cheexsta

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Nicely put, OP. The distinction between 'ancestry' (i.e. patricians vs plebes) and 'class' (i.e. wealth) needs to be better understood.

First, I didn't even used the word "patrician" nor "Roman upper class", nor "upper plebs", nor "middle plebs", nor "lower plebs" so I don't get what you talk about... Please put your binoculars before reading posts...

Secondly, obviously plebeians weren't all part of the lower class, the simple fact that I put "wealthy plebeians" among pops explicitly state that those aren't a lower class.

Third, your implied allegation, if what you intend to mean is that there wouldn't be important wealth divide between plebeians, would be in direct contradiction with Jean-Pierre Vernant's Greco-Roman Empire, (and I believe it make some academic authority, but I am open to read your contradicting sources).

In a chapter specifically about plebeians, Vernant stated that there were wealthy plebeians, sometime very wealthy (and obviously poor plebeians too). Arguably it could even be said there was what we can broadly label a "middle class", albeit the word isn't much proper for Ancient times. He argue that it is much erroneous to see the plebs as a monolithic class, like you, alas, do now (but like you goodly avoided to do in your original post).
I think what stratigo is getting at is that you've made any distinction for plebes at all when the rest of your pops are based off class, not ancestry. You've already got the wealth classes of Senators and Knights, but then you've also added 'Wealthy Plebeians' who would have fit into one of the previously mentioned classes anyway - so why have a separate pop for them?
 

Federalist girl

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I would be shocked and surprised if the game actually correctly modeled Roman social distinctions, especially since the same pop system is going to be used for all nations. But honestly -- the patrician/plebeian confusion is only in how it's being explained in a dev diary, not how it's being used in-game.

The "citizen" pop actually represents nobility (in the wider sense, not the nobiles in the Roman sense). Nobility in this game would include both the senatorial order and the equestrian order, consisting of both patricians and plebeians, and all all gradations thereof (nobiles and novi homines both in the Senate).

The "freeman" pop actually represents everyone who's not a noble or a slave. This includes the classes able to participate in the centuriate assembly and those which were unable, all the way down to the capiti censi.

It's all super abstracted and compressed.

But yes, it would be nice if people did not use "patrician" to mean "senator" or "upper class" because it does not mean that, nor does "plebeian" mean "poor" or "working class" in any sense.
 

Rhaegar1

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Good post OP, insightful and helpful in sharpening ones knowledge about the social distinctions of the Romans.

That being said, I feel the chosen names and pop classes are a effort to create a system that works more or less for all cultures in the game throughout the entire timespan of it with good gameplay. Not just give an as accurate as possible representation of just the Romans.

From that perspective I feel that the 4 classes should give a decent basis.
 

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I think what stratigo is getting at is that you've made any distinction for plebes at all when the rest of your pops are based off class, not ancestry.

None of my suggested pops are based on ancestry: wealthy, poor and miserable aren't a purely hereditary condition: it is something which evolve with generations and within generation. At worst it could be rightfully said that I didn't considered at all patricians who were only a tiny fraction of civilians, a bit like it could be perceived that I didn't much considered children and women, when I named classes....

You've already got the wealth classes of Senators and Knights, but then you've also added 'Wealthy Plebeians' who would have fit into one of the previously mentioned classes anyway - so why have a separate pop for them?

Wealthy plebeians, or civilians which is more inclusive, would not had fit into one of the senators or knights pops... The senators where wealthiest among the wealthiest: they had to have enough money to dedicate, without any compensation, most of their time to the public life and it was considered inappropriate for them to work (albeit, many of them immorally did). Senators and knights where sort of professional politicians or civil servants.

My wealthy plebeians POP have activities who allow them to earn a lot, such as being merchants or financiers, but either not enough or either in a way difficultly compatible with public dignity... That is what distinguish them from senators or knights: they rather were sort of private capitalists. Their economical classes were distinct and their role in the society were distinct too.

Under my divide, Cicero would achieve to be senator, his father would be knight and his great grand father might be a wealthy plebeian...
 
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Federalist girl

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None of my suggested pops are based on ancestry: wealthy, poor and miserable aren't a purely hereditary condition: it is something which evolve with generations and within generation. At worst it could be rightfully said that I didn't considered at all patricians who were only a tiny fraction of civilians, a bit like it could be perceived that I didn't much considered children and women, when I named classes....



Wealthy plebeians, or civilians which is more inclusive, would not had fit into one of the senators or knights pops... The senators where wealthiest among the wealthiest: they had to have enough money to dedicate, without any compensation, most of their time to the public life and it was considered inappropriate for them to work (albeit, many of them immorally did). Senators and knights where sort of professional politicians or civil servants.

My wealthy plebeians POP have activities who allow them to earn a lot, such as being merchants or financiers, but either not enough or either in a way difficultly compatible with public dignity... That is what distinguish them from senators or knights: they rather were sort of private capitalists. Their economical classes were distinct and their role in the society were distinct too.

Under my divide, Cicero would achieve to be senator, his father would be knight and his great grand father might be a wealthy plebeian...

I think the objection is your continued use of plebeian as if it’s incompatible with being a knight or a senator.

Cicero WAS a wealthy guy plebeian senator.
 

Captain Frakas

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I think the objection is your continued use of plebeian as if it’s incompatible with being a knight or a senator.

With this kind of logic, my use of "Free men" or of "Servile men" would had implied that senators or knights weren't human beings... No one made me remarks about my alleged pretending that senators and knights were dogs, donkeys or whatever.

Nothing in my posts imply or explicit that being plebeian was incompatible with being knight or senator, especially since I didn't suggested a "plebeian" pop but many economic pops based on wealth (wealthy plebeian, poor plebeian, miserable plebeian, which as I've said, might had better name, such as "wealthy civilians, poor civilians, miserable civilians").

It would had required pops labelled "patrician senator", "patrician knight" and "plebeian" to imply such incompatibility.

On the contrary, it might had been wrongly understood as implying that there wasn't any wealthy, poor or miserable patricians (which is wrong, there was some) or that they were quite few (which is right: the overwhelming civilian population was constituted by plebeians).

Anyway, now that it is clear that I didn't intended to mean that, that I didn't wrote something that would suggest that, that I didn't wrote something that would imply that, that such understanding could only had raised from Stratigo's misjudgement, I think it might be more interesting to comment the content.

Cicero WAS a wealthy guy plebeian senator.

Cicero was more than simply wealthy: he was among the wealthiest men of his society. We was able to live without working and to spare his time on philosophy and politics. That is a luxury to which many wealthy Romans didn't had access.

This is summarised as being a pop labelled "senator": way wealthier than the wealthy men, dedicated to public affairs rather than to private affairs.

To take a very approximative example, it might be the difference between your higher middle class friend who live in chic neighbourhood because he earn very well his life and someone like Mark Zuckerberg... not the same category of wealth.

(Crassus happened to believe that only those able to maintain, with their own possessions, an army in campaign qualified to be rich. ;) )
 
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Cheexsta

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With this kind of logic, my use of "Free men" or of "Servile men" would had implied that senators or knights weren't human beings... No one made me remarks about my alleged pretending that senators and knights were dogs, donkeys or whatever.
This thread is about the patrician/plebeian divide, which is why I believe stratigos honed in on that. The use of 'Free Men' and 'Servile Men' would be incorrect as well for the reasons you mention, however they weren't the focus of this thread so no one is commenting on it.

I understand what you're trying to say - that there was a difference between simply being 'wealthy' and being 'senatorial' - but the objection is purely to do with your use of the word 'plebeian', since that category of your list would have also included patricians.

Back to the topic, though. IMHO, if you want a system that works for as many cultures as possible within this time period, this is what I would suggest.

Aristocrats - represents philosophers, lawyers, statesmen etc - anyone who can afford to think rather than work. Provides research points and trade income.
Commoners - represents the vast majority of the free populace. Provides manpower.
Proletariat - represents free populace that owns little or no property. Provides only a small amount of manpower and tax income.
Slaves - represents slaves as well as any other servile position. Provides tax income.

Then you could have laws, traditions, events, etc which provide modifiers to the above. For example, aristocrats could seize public lands for their own use, converting some of your Commoner pops to Slaves and Proletariat. You could then enact laws to reverse this at the cost of reducing Aristocrat output. And/or you could enact laws to increase the manpower output of the Proletariat...

I think you can see where this is going.