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River attack for some units is -65 when it should be -50 without any river crossing research finished. Since river_attack is not present in the terrain modifiers section of saved games, it seems to be picking up a different value.

The River_attack parameters as shown in saved games posting gives more details.

Is this separate from the problem of terrain modifiers somehow ending up in the wrong place? Or a separate problem? Or a combination of both?
 
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Some additional info. My guess is that the terrain modifier error occurs when a game is saved or when a game is saved and reloaded.

I started another Germany game (standard plain vanilla 1.06b with no mods) and did not see any problems when I played the game straight thru without stopping and reloading a saved game. I saw the -50 river attack for French inf and -47 for French motor (one tech) that should be expected. I saved the game at that point. When I had river crossing errors, this was where I first spotted them.

After I got Vichy, I exited to the single player screen and loaded the saved game. The French inf had a -65 river attack while the French motor still had a -47. No problems before the game was saved and no problems after that date while the game was still ongoing.

So the game perhaps put in an artificial value for river attack if nothing else was present when it was saved. I have a saved game in May that shows the problem and a later save after Vichy which could be researched to see what other river attack values are wrong. I reloaded as France and confirmed that they have not yet researched the river cross techs as they have not researched the land doctrine theory level that is a pre req for that group of inf techs.
 
John I think you are correct on the basis....

Standard river penalty should be -50%
It is infact -65% (on a reload)

Not sure where this additional -15% is coming from.

It is occurring for both AI and player.

The (bonus) for having a -E brigade seems to be -30%.

However, ARM, MECH and MOT values for river crossing were: -47% for non -E brigaded units. And -17% for -E brigaded units. THIS was with the Basic Wading tech which grants -3% to those three unit types.

Therefore, at least from my observations the problem is with INF/MTN/MAR/PARA type units only.

FYI:

Code:
    -E  non -E brigade
ARM -47  -17
MEC -47  -17
MOT -47  -17
INF -35  -65
MAR -25  -55
MTN -35  -65
PAR n/a  -65
 
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Well I started a 1939 scenario as Germany same VH/F as my original 1936 game I made the above obs with and the river crossing is zero. With the 2 INF techs, Portable Bridge and Amphibious Crossing equipment -25% ea for INF.


EDIT: Started a 1936 scenario and found that INF have -50 and INF-E have -25 penalties for rivercrossing which is consistent with what I would expect.

Therefore, I think you idea about the savegame could be the cause.

REPORTED in BETA forum.
 
The more general problem is that the game engine for some reason does not put all terrain modifiers into the game. Some start out immediately while others like river and urban attack pop up later. The game then looks for a matching value and doesn't find it and uses something else instead. River is the easiest to spot.

In the example game that I used, the French did not have any river_attack values for inf et al in the saved game when I looked at it with Word. But they need to have a value for river_attack when the game is being played, so some value near where it could be found seems to be grabbed such as the -15 swamp_attack as suggested by Jdrou.

When you do not resume a game by loading a save, you do not seem to have the problem. When you load a save, even though the saved game does not have a river_attack value for most inf, then you have a problem. Curiouser and curiouser.

I would like to edit the game to fix this, but it would be an enormous task to figure out what would need to be inserted into the saved game. Since there is no
river_attack = -15 or even a river_attack = 0 in the game, a simple find and replace is not possible.

Later on these terrain modifiers can get even worse. From a different saved game I had for German infantry in 1941 or later:

swamp_attack = -15
urban_attack = -15
river_attack = 35
shore_attack = 5
paradrop_attack = -15
fort_attack = -10

The -15 river_attack problem was still there (50-15=35) but paradrop_attack as a negative number is another example of this general problem as is a negative fort_attack parameter. This was also reported in a previous bug thread dealing with the wrong terrain parameters being picked up:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151588
attack and defence modifers transfer from one case to another

As I become more aware of the problem, it's making me reluctant to continue playing the game when I know that terrain modifiers are frequently very wrong whenever you load a saved game. The longer that the game is played, the more likely that you will have a mess such as above.
 
I have been working on something to fix this and I think I may have found a workaround. I have made a tech (and altered one, but that's a long story) that alters the terrainmodifiers, and included it in the inc. files for each country. I've also had to do this for aircraft since in some of my savefiles aircraft also picked-up terrainmodifiers (in one save the fort_attack modifier for German divebombers had spread to every other possible modifier giving these units 50 desert_attack, etc. etc. etc.).
So far I have only been able to do limited testing with this, so if anyone wants to try this out, let me know.
 
I hope I can clear up some things with this post on what happens with the terrainmodifiers. The reason why there are sometimes very different modifiers between two countries is because they don't always follow the same researchroute, some countries have a tech in their setup that already triggers a modifier and it seems that there is no particular sequence in the way unwanted terrainmodifiers are triggered.
I have taken John's example from the 1.06c comments thread because it shows clearly what it can lead to.
john heidle said:
blizzard_defense = 15 // blizzard_defense = -5
snow_defense = 15 // snow_defense = -5
frozen_defense = 15 // frozen_defense = -5
rain_defense = 5 // rain_defense = -15
storm_defense = 5 // storm_defense = -15
muddy_defense = 5 // muddy_defense = -15
night_defense = 5 // night_defense = -2
desert_defense = 30 // desert_defense = -15
mountain_defense = 15 // mountain_defense = 15
hill_defense = 5 // hill_defense = 5
forest_defense = 10 // forest_defense = 10
jungle_defense = 50 // jungle_defense = 30
swamp_defense = 10 // swamp_defense = 10
urban_defense = 10 // urban_defense = 10
We can already see a problem in he first line. German infantry has a blizzard defense of +15, while Soviet infantry with the same tech has -5. Germany starts the game with the modern flamethrower tech, which ads +5 to fortattack, while the Soviet Union does not. This is important because when a terrainmodifier is triggered it will pick the modifier inmediately above. In Germany's case it was the fortress_attackmodifier with a value of +5(not shown, but located directly above), while for the Soviets it most probably was the swamp_attackmodifier of -15. When both countries then actually developed Arctic Warfare Equipment, the german modifier was changed to (5+10) +15 while the soviet modifier was changed to (-15+10)+5. These two modifiers seem to have spread throughout the order untill they reached a modifier that was already present, namely mountain_defense.
The differences in between can thus be explained, in the case of desert_defense, germany picksup +5, then develops Desert Warfare Equipment and ends up with +30 while the Soviets are stuck with -15 until they develop this tech, at which point they still remain at a mere +10. Snow and frozen defense are activated by the same tech as blizzard defense.
The modifiers in between, with values of +5 for Germany and -15 for the Soviet Union, should not be there. I have several savefiles from 1936 and 1937 and none of them show them, they all pop up later in the game, with the same value as the modifier above.
I can't explain the night_defense values.
The Night_attack values seem rather odd because they recieve a modifier of +13 with the near infrared scope. it starts out at 0, then picked up -15 and the tech was developed afterwards, resulting in a value of -2.
.
On a different but related topic: I just noticed in this saved game that none of the German or Soviet mountain troops had ANY hill_attack or mountain_attack or forest_attack saved values. Since my four starting Soviet mountain troops have not fought yet I didn't notice whether there was a game effect. The other land divisions have those variables listed but neither German or Soviet mountain troops have it. I've never seen that before when I either cut and paste the terrain values into a spreadsheet or when I tried to edit a saved game to get the right values.
AFAIK mountaineers simply do not get a mountain_ / hill_ or forest_attack modifier,and what I have seen in my early savegames suggests the same, as opposed to other troops who receive a penalty between -40 and -80 in mountains, -10 or -20 in hills and -10 in forests. But with this problem it could easily pick up either frozen_attack, night_attack or desert attack, which may have been changed itself already.
I would like to add some general observations that may need further testing, perhaps they are helpful. The problem seems to appear either late in the game or after several saves. My savegames were distorted most after 1942 but since I saved them regularly every two years I am not sure if either one or both is more harmfull. The problem also seems to amplify itself. In an unmodded savegame, torpedobombers had no modifiers whereas other aircraft were heavily affected. Which is correct, since there are no combatmodifiers for Torpedoplanes. When I later included Torpedobombers in the mod, they also pickup a lot of modifiers.
With the help of Jdrou and Mithel I was able to get my tech going, so I'm hoping to have it available as a download sometime next week. If anybody is interested in the meantime I would be more than happy to mail it.
 
The fix for he terrainmodifers is now reday for download, follow the link in my sig. Included are a modified infantry tech file, modified inc. files for all scenarios and their backups.
 
Fiendix said:
looks interesting - but I understand that they do not modify any of the techs themselves or add anything - they just fix the terrians so that the modifiers show up correctly - right?

F

PS i can seem to download it
It consists of a tech, that each country has at startup, that ads 1 to modifiers that can be changed in game (snowattack f.i.) and modifiers that are likely to pick up false values (such as urban move) at startup. This way they can't appear in a savegame and pickup the nearest value, because it's already present. No other techs have been changed, so riverattack f.i. is now 1% higher.
Unfortunately I'm at work right now, so I can't fix the link until this evening.

Edit; the link should be working now.
 
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If I copy the link and paste into address window it works but if I try to click the link Lycos gives me an "External Referrer" error and then crashes my browser (Opera 7.21).
 
jdrou said:
If I copy the link and paste into address window it works but if I try to click the link Lycos gives me an "External Referrer" error and then crashes my browser (Opera 7.21).
Sorry, I don't have any experience with uploading things, but it works for me with Explorer. I'll see if I can get my computer at work to download it. In the meantime, I have asked Vulture if it can be uploaded to the scenarios and modifications page. If that doen't work, just send me a Pm with your E-mail and I'll send it to you.
 
Robert Koop said:
If that doen't work, just send me a Pm with your E-mail and I'll send it to you.
I was able to get it by pasting the address into the browser instead of following the link. Lycos probably just doesn't agree with Opera. I have a newer version on another machine (7.51) which doesn't crash but still doesn't download; Lycos redirects to your home folder.
 
Robert Koop said:
For some reason, it will show the page when leftclicking, using rightclick and "save target as" however works for me. Anybody know how to correct this?

hmm true I just saved it... dont know why it didnt work the other way..

F
 
Robert Koop said:
Do you mean that you can't download it :confused:
"Save target as" seems to save referer.htm now. Pasting the link into address window doesn't work for me anymore either.