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Knightfall52

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It seems a lot of people just want to conquer the world with no resistance. I think the rivalry system is just fine. If you are similar sized and bordering, then you are A) a threat and B) In the way of their growth. I give the AI kudos for having diplomacy at all when compared to other strategy games. I don't think any of the games in the past had alliances and rivalries that actually made an impact on the game at all much less have factors that drive them!

Its not about conquering the world, lets be honest, alliances is not the most efficient way to work your way to ultimate power :p

The problem is erratic behavior and breaking of relationships that you worked hard for, there is no worse feeling in gaming and to an extend real life other than that, people harming you or quitting on you despite the work you put towards it (girlfriend of years that you made a ton of effort for dumps you because she has different or even competing life goals)

As a concept it is 100% historical, 100% realistic but it feels too damn bad but asking for it to be removed although it would make the game feel better it would make it more unrealistic.

The only thing that can make the game be better with this mechanic in it, would be to make so it communicates better with you, dialogue options and events would make it even more engaging.

Example: You play as Portugal and your long term ally of England feels your alliance inst beneficiary to them anymore since they want your bordering colonies in the new world. Option A. give them the colonies Option B. To hell with them, diplomatic insult casus belli

Example: You play as Venice and your long term ally of Hungary feels that it needs a water way because you have conquered all of Adriatic coast. Option A. Give them the lowest tax province. Option B. give them the highest tax province +25 permanent relation. Option C. To hell with them diplomatic insult casus belli.


Tl;dr Give allies a way to maintain their alliance through diplomatic means even if they seem to have a dispute about a province or they feel they are threatened by the expansion of the other.
 

lukesilveira

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Example: You play as Portugal and your long term ally of England feels your alliance inst beneficiary to them anymore since they want your bordering colonies in the new world. Option A. give them the colonies Option B. To hell with them, diplomatic insult casus belli

You mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1890_British_Ultimatum

If so I agree. England would toss away about 500 years of a friendly relationship over colonies in Africa. Of course, it isn't in the game period but we can see that such arrangements would shaken countries relations, not strengthen it.
 

Trickrs

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Rivalry is kinda random, I think.

Some examples in past games:

Netherlands : Hungary, Russia
Ottomans: Sweden
Britain: Morocco
Portugal: Poland
Japan: Mughals
 

RadRussian

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Rivalry can sometimes be random. Austria was cordial to me with +200 opinion but suddenly it changed to hostile, she insulted and broke alliance with me. I did not conquer or integrate anyone or did anything to provoke it.
 

hitchens

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I think the rivalry system is just fine.

Stop, please stop. The rivalry system is not fine its broken. Mark my words, rivalry will either be removed completely or get a massive overhaul and that will show its *not* fine.
There should be logic in strategy gaming, and rivalry is not logical at all.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Not only is it historical, but players also act in a similar way. How many times have you broken an alliance to complete a mission?

Just for a mission? Never. I've done it with nations that fell behind and were no longer worth one of the diplo relations to hold it, but the target of most alliances are powers that can actually do something when you get into a war. The exception is for RM vassals.

Edit:

Doing something like conquering significantly more territory, being bordering nations when you were not previously, or accumulating aggressive expansion would be valid reasons for breaking an alliance. So would the other power becoming so great compared to yours (or yours to them) that one side wants to stomp or defend the other.

Random acts of hostility over literally nothing occuring at all are less defensible, and that's the main issue with the rivalry mechanic.
 

unmerged(804580)

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Stop, please stop. The rivalry system is not fine its broken. Mark my words, rivalry will either be removed completely or get a massive overhaul and that will show its *not* fine.
There should be logic in strategy gaming, and rivalry is not logical at all.

There is usually logic behind rivalries. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean there is no logic at all. I personally have no problem when nations decide to rival me. Rivalry basically means they see you as a competitor, and as I've shown in my screenshots friendship/alliance can prevent rivalry to a significant extent. France not rivaling a fully fledged Germany? Why not? The attitudes used to fluctuate more, and people complained the allies turned rivals or hostile all too often. So they made the attitudes a bit less likely to change, and you can now have permanent allies next to your border.

1. You're about the even sized nation. Small nations usually rival other small ones, big ones usually rival big ones. Let's say you're playing Denmark and Castile decides to rival you and you're left with 'wtf?' expression. Castile sees you either as an equal power, or someone to surpass in the future, or a distant potential threat rising which, if left unchecked, can be problem to itself.

2. You're their trade competitor. I've had OPMs rivaling me while I was much, much larger. An OPM Moldavia rivaled my Asia-spanning Candar, and an OPM Zhou did to my Champassak which pretty much unified all the mainland Southeast Asia, for example. They presumably did this in order to increase embargo efficiency in their own trade node.

3. They do not want to have a diplomatic relationship with you. They don't see you as an immediate threat to their independence, but as a potentially dangerous enemy, and chose not to antagonize nor to have relationships with you, such as royal marriage. In my England > HYW > HRE, Spain never ceased to rival me to the very end, because we shared a dynasty. Portugal fell to junior partner, and Spain didn't want it to happen to it.

4. Just like a human player would do, the AI nations would rather be surrounded by smaller nations than face a larger or equal sized nation nearby. So, while they do not want to conquer your lands directly (that's hostile attitude), they'd like to cut you down a bit to feel safer. Say, you're playing as Austria. You're currently allied to France. France is gobbling up provinces Brittany, Provence and Burgundy. You would feel worrisome - THIS is the moment an AI Austria would rival France. You might be friends now, but in the long run you don't want France to grow too big.

5. Now, this might be an unfortunate side-effect of a game, but there might not be any other viable nation left to rival. In my England > HRE, there weren't so many nations left in Europe at all in the late game. Whoever survived either rivaled me (Spain still had the size to do so) or each other. Hungary rivaled Prussia, Lithuania and Poland because there were no other Eastern European nations left at the moment even though Hungary was completely landlocked within my borders.

6. Again, this can be another side-effect of being a game, but the AIs can be very slow to change their attitude. Austria rivaled me in the Ulm campaign (screenshots on the first page) fairly early and they never removed it until I demanded total annexation. They don't flip their attitudes too often because there were complaints that they did so too often and randomly. Once they rival you, it can be hard to change back. They might, they might not, and it's up to them whether they want something out of you or not.

7. They want the enemy of enemy bonus.

How do you change their attitudes? Usually you can't. You can improve relations all you want, but they're meant to be resisting your efforts otherwise the game will become too easy - their strategic interest always takes precedent over the "opinion."

By the way, if you really want to see what an AI nation thinks of you, you need to look at your opinion of them: say, you're France, and you want to ally Austria. You improve their opinion of you to +100. You can't ally them because "you don't like them." The truth is that Austria doesn't give you a damn and is not interested in alliances, and therefore makes no effort to improve your opinion of Austria. There are limited way to improve your opinion of a target country (like military access or shared rivalry) to get around this, but the point is that you can't just send a diplomat to change the AI attitude towards you. The opposite happens as well: if you're France, and tiny Alsace improves your relationships, will you be kind to be their protecting ally instead of conquering them? It's perfectly normal for an AI nation to have +100 opinion and still hostile/rival just as it is normal for you to be that way. Sure, you want to be our friend and buy us some beer, but I'd still rather have your provinces than you as my friend.

Likewise, "random" hostilities are also perfectly normal. You look at the map, and you wonder who you should invade first. Hmmm... maybe I want to take this bit of Poland next. Sorry Poland, you've done nothing against me and in fact I kind of like you, but I want your land. The AIs do exactly the same thing. If an AI turns hostile, they want your province(s). They may or may not act on it, and they may reconsider and change their ambition - then they're not hostile anymore. If Poland suddenly changes from hostile to friendly to your Brandenburg, it means they changed their plan: they want to go after Bohemia and now they think you might be a useful ally. At least, unlike humans, the AIs give you a signal that you're their conquest target and that's a nice advantage you have as a human.

There was a dev response a while ago (I think it was Wiz) to a similar complaint - the OP of that thread, Brandenburg, allied Bohemia and conquered Neumark. Bohemia broke the alliance and turned hostile, and the OP complained about it. The dev answer was simple: Bohemia wanted Neumark as well, and while the Bohemia AI would appreciate Brandenburg declaring war on Teutonic Order, but still they want the province.

Well, in the end, if you really have problems with the AI attitudes, play a non-ironman game with the console command 'aiview.' This will allow you to see what the AI thinks of you and other nations by hovering mouse over the sheild on the diplomacy screen. It shows who they think of as friends, rivals, enemies, and what provinces they want to conquer, where they want to colonize, etc. Their conquest wishlist is often fairly extensive. AIs have their ambitions just as you do.
 
Last edited:

hitchens

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There is usually logic behind rivalries. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean there is no logic at all.

Yeah. I released Serbia as Austria once and thought it would make a good ally against the Ottomans but no, AI Serbia would rather set me to rival than to be my friend against Ottomans and thus ended up getting annexed again.
Your wall of text was sad to say pointless as you just stated the obvious that has no real relevance to the way rivalry works today.
 

Red John

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Likewise, "random" hostilities are also perfectly normal. You look at the map, and you wonder who you should invade first. Hmmm... maybe I want to take this bit of Poland next. Sorry Poland, you've done nothing against me and in fact I kind of like you, but I want your land. The AIs do exactly the same thing. If an AI turns hostile, they want your province(s). They may or may not act on it, and they may reconsider and change their ambition - then they're not hostile anymore. If Poland suddenly changes from hostile to friendly to your Brandenburg, it means they changed their plan: they want to go after Bohemia and now they think you might be a useful ally. At least, unlike humans, the AIs give you a signal that you're their conquest target and that's a nice advantage you have as a human.

The problem comes when the AI acts schizophrenic. Your logic says that they're going hostile because they want a province. So they break our alliance.
Except then they suddenly become friendly again? Why would they break the alliance if they're going to go friendly a month later? You don't see France making an alliance with Spain IRL then suddenly they break it, because they think 'Oh I'd LOVE Cuba', then they suddenly turn around and say 'You know what, nevermind. Lets be friends again.' In a 2 month timespan.

It's like they throw 3 darts on a dartboard blindfolded and dizzy to see what they think of you every year.
 

unmerged(804580)

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Yeah. I released Serbia as Austria once and thought it would make a good ally against the Ottomans but no, AI Serbia would rather set me to rival than to be my friend against Ottomans and thus ended up getting annexed again.
Your wall of text was sad to say pointless as you just stated the obvious that has no real relevance to the way rivalry works today.

If Serbia thinks you're too dangerous to be their ally, they'll rival you. It may not be the smartest thing, but newly released nations often do this to the ones who released them. "Released in peace" +100 puts them dangerously close to diplovassalization and rivalry is the only way to prevent that from happening. Alliance and royal marriage adds another +75, a few months of diplomat and you've got a new vassal. The reason #3 above.

A released OPM might rather be a vassal, but if Serbia decides to take a chance by themselves, it's up to them even if they end up defeated again.

The problem comes when the AI acts schizophrenic. Your logic says that they're going hostile because they want a province. So they break our alliance.
Except then they suddenly become friendly again? Why would they break the alliance if they're going to go friendly a month later? You don't see France making an alliance with Spain IRL then suddenly they break it, because they think 'Oh I'd LOVE Cuba', then they suddenly turn around and say 'You know what, nevermind. Lets be friends again.' In a 2 month timespan.

It's like they throw 3 darts on a dartboard blindfolded and dizzy to see what they think of you every year.

Based on what I know, the AIs give a score to rivalry, enemy, friends, etc. If the AI acts schizophrenic, it means the AI just can't make up their minds. This is annoying, and I can sympathize with you on this point. But the AI does dumb things when they conflict between close options. At least this happens less often than before.
 

hitchens

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If Serbia thinks you're too dangerous to be their ally, they'll rival you. It may not be the smartest thing, but newly released nations often do this to the ones who released them. "Released in peace" +100 puts them dangerously close to diplovassalization and rivalry is the only way to prevent that from happening. Alliance and royal marriage adds another +75, a few months of diplomat and you've got a new vassal. The reason #3 above.

A released OPM might rather be a vassal, but if Serbia decides to take a chance by themselves, it's up to them even if they end up defeated again.

That goes back to the logic part. I wanted Serbia as an ally against the Ottomans but the way things works now it wont always work. I agree with the diplovassalization thing but there really should some some other modefier than rivalry.
 

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That goes back to the logic part. I wanted Serbia as an ally against the Ottomans but the way things works now it wont always work. I agree with the diplovassalization thing but there really should some some other modefier than rivalry.

Yes, I agree. I wish there were some better lines of communication and tell the AI "see, I want to focus on my Empire, I don't want to expand in the Balkans, I want to be your ally and help contain the Ottomans."

But again, I don't know if it'd work even then. The bottom line is that you can't control the AI attitude. Even if I could send a perfectly unambiguous message that I don't want any land in the Balkans, why would Serbia trust me?...

Nothing explain Russia and Hungary being my rivals in my current Dutch game.

It's annoying.

I can't really say anything about it unless there's more information. Who are they allied to, who are their other rivals, who are you allie to, who are your rivals, how big is your Netherlands and how big are Hungary and Russia, etc, etc, etc. The list of potential influences to the AI decision goes on and on.
 
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