Rivaling mechanics - any actual hard data?

[endorken]

I think everyone is probably away playing Fallout, but I'm hoping some of the more crazy.. erm.. committed players are still around, so I'll ask -- does anyone have any hard data on rivaling mechanics? Meaning statements from devs or quotes from txt files or anything else that's not personal experience or speculation?

I mean -- look -- I realize why rivaling mechanics needed to be changed -- what we had before was too exploitable. That said -- I do wish the current system of rivaling based on relative power was a little more transparent, and I wish I understood what *exactly* the determining factors are.

Mind you, I do have a general grasp of what comparable in power means. I do understand what distance is. I just wish I knew where exactly distance fits in the equation, and whether power is determined by development, force limit, income, some combination of all, and if so, in what order of importance.

Here's an example from my current Castile game, it's 1497:

The income tab looks more or less the same. I have provinces in the british isles, in north africa, italy, greece, and scandinavia -- in other words I have adjacency or near adjacency ( a couple of coastal zones) to everyone from England to France to Austria to Poland.

I can only rival the Ottomans (which makes perfect sense) and ... wait for it ... the Mamluks. Burgundy -- which still has all of its PUs is waaaay more powerful than it looks on the screen, Poland has Lith under PU, and is also waaay more powerful than it looks, yet all I get is the Mamluks.

Is it just based on force limit? If so, then why not Poland? Or is the distance between Norway and Poland too great? In which case why do the Aztecs get rivaled by the Commonwealth before making landfall in Europe (true story)?

So, ladies and gents, if anyone's got the lowdown on what the equation for comparable power + distance actually is -- don't be shy.

 

[yerm]

I believe I've figured out the exact formula the devs use to determine rivalry:

Spoiler

 

[Thrake]

Did the Mamlukes rivaled you? Sometimes you can only rival a nation because it rivaled you first (so I guess that the range can be wider when it is about stronger nations that it can be about weaker nations, unless the weaker nation rivaled you first).

I don't think the rival mechanic looks at subjects but it's mere supposition.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's really wonky. If there's a set formula it has a lot of components. This Lucca:



Can, only after massacring the HRE, rival stuff like Russia, Scandinavia, Brazil, and Malaya. Previously I've had stretches where my only eligible rival was Burgundy and Ottomans. NED was somehow a valid rival despite that I could annex their European mainland holdings in 1 war.

How in the world is Silesia eligible?!

Not all of those nations have me set as a rival, either obviously. Often, shortly after picking them, they'll become ineligible again. At this point I have more than five times the active standing army of any other nation in the world. Maybe it's just using score ranking and allowing you to rival nations that are presently scoring well and nearby?

I think Yerm's formula is close enough to accurate to use it as a working model for now, unfortunately.

 

[tableandchair]

Yea , I would also appreciate more discussion/ideas/data on how it works. Micro managing rivals is pretty essential in some of the harder starts and understanding how mechanics work is always cool.

From my experience it seems to be a mixture of score gain, distance and relation. There is also a special rule where you can always rival someone who rivals you. There are probably other modifiers on that I am probably missing.

Even this doesn't fully explain some situations. If you do a ryukyu start and no-cb and vassalise paggarung, you cant rival anyone until they rival you, usually Siak. Why can they rival you but you not rival them?

 

[endorken]

I don't think the rival mechanic looks at subjects but it's mere supposition.

Exactly, the mechanic is so opaque we don't even know *that* for sure.

Often, shortly after picking them, they'll become ineligible again.

Don't even get me started -- England becomes available, I get myself all hot and bothered, prepare the lube, ship troops to ireland, and right as I'm about to declare, England suddenly becomes ineligible. Oy vey.

I think Yerm's formula is close enough to accurate to use it as a working model for now, unfortunately.

Agreed

Why can they rival you but you not rival them?

That's the most mystifying thing of all -- you'd expect rivaling rules to be symmetrical for any two countries in question. Perhaps some sort of an AI exemption? I don't know.

 

[Saelon121]

I think tech group might also play some kind of factor. I was playing a game as a big Hindustan, rivalling the Ottomans. We both started westernizing at about the same time, when their westernization finished they immediately became invalid rivals, and once my westernization finished, I was able to reselect them as a rival.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think tech group might also play some kind of factor. I was playing a game as a big Hindustan, rivalling the Ottomans. We both started westernizing at about the same time, when their westernization finished they immediately became invalid rivals, and once my westernization finished, I was able to reselect them as a rival.

Hordes can rival/be rivaled by anybody. Aside from that, nations with 50% or more difference in tech cost can't rival each other. Thus, even if you're 2000 development with 22/22/22 tech Hindustan, it is impossible for a 1500 development 22/22/22 France to rival you and vice versa.

 

[Soulburger]

I suspect army size and MP is factored in as well. Several times I have warred with a rival. Sacked their country, wiped out their armies, and sunk their MP to 0. After war they are not longer eligible but a year or two later they are back on the list despite no territory changes.

 

[Chaingun]

EDIT: Duh I'm tired, I first answered a different question

I might look it up tomorrow. It builds some sort of rival list, which also passes through a validity check, at least that check I could explain.

 

[yerm]

- Randomness.

OOOH WHAT NOW looks like I was right! Suck on that respectfully disagree!

Err, I mean, ahem, any chance you could give us details on the strength of these influences or some numbers behind them? How much do relations work, for instance... would insults potentially unlock rivals or is it a trivial amount? Can you clarify randomness - is that like just RNG for kicks random or like various tiny features too difficult to explain thus being called random but not truly random randomness?

 

[Chaingun]

(For anyone reading afterwards: I answered how the AI behaves when it picks rivals, and yeah, randomness was one of several factors.)

Generally, in AI we stay away from complete randomness or complete predictability and just mix in a limited amount of it to make decisions somewhat less easy to predict.