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loup99

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Fair enough, i thought you were going for more historicity in that area that's only why i suggested it.
Well, you would basically be able to do what you suggested but through a law rather than an event.

One could give Islam the ability to change its character depending on the circumstances of its creation
In the OP we have a few alternatives (in addition to what I posted concerning the suggested tolerance). Anything else you had in mind?
 

fredrikslicer

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A few suggestion I had for the vanilla game but I think most still apply

1. Iqta members are more likely to gain the "Ambitious" trait
2. Decadence causes negative opinion in your vassals -5 per 10% this replaces the invasion
3. Vassal AI will be more likely to aspire to having a kingdom title
4. Vassal reaction to raised crown authority is greater as is willingness to lower it (how much greater is debatable)
5. Vassals outside de jure territory might ask to become a tributary instead of a vassal and if reject will be disappointed (I don't have horse lords so this might not be something that makes all that much sense it just sounded like a good idea)

Caliphate
5. Powerful vassals in de jure territory might aspire to usurp the caliph title (different requrments for different caliphates for instance Sunnis by piety and Shias by Sayyid or Mirza trait)
6. When a Muslim with the Caliph as head usurps or creates a kingdom the caliph may either legitimize it or reject it. Legitimizing it leads to a positive opinion from the creator of the kingdom while rejecting it leads to mutual negative opinions if the king is a vassal the caliph is likely to strip him of the title and if he is independent the caliph can give the right to invading the kingdom to a vassal of his choosing or be requested for it (reflecting things like the Samanid invasion of the Saffarids at the urging of the Abbasid caliph) also part of it should be dependent on proximity and importance of the title with regards to legitimacy I don't think the caliph gives a shit of a Muslim claims the kingdom of Perm for instance
7. There can be two Caliphs maximum at any given time (per sect), Sunni muslims ca declare themselves caliphs occupying only Cordoba
8. Independent Shias and Ibadis can proclaim themselves Imams with either sufficient piety or the right blood line (Sayyid, Mizra) giving themselves a +1 Piety/Month and +5 Opinion (Title hierarchy: Caliph>Imam>Secular title)
9. Druze, Sufi (Harufi), Yazidi, Zikri should be separate branches and the Jurisprudences should instead represent heresies (I.E Hanafi, Hanbali, Malik) and they should confer a -10 religious differences between each other.
10. Pagan converts gain folk islam as opposed to any specific form (Unless the are neighbors to a settled realm that has a specific form) folk islam do not get any of the decisions associated with common islam aside from Hajj nor become neither Imams or Caliphs upon settling, feudalizing or becoming a republic the choice of Sect and Jurisprudence appeares as an event to the player.
11. Muslims cannot declare Jihad (as a form of crusade) standard holy war is renamed Jihad
12. Depose Rival Caliph is a Casus Belli that is against all other Caliphs (Irrespective of sect) upon winning your opponent loses the Title of Caliph and this causes a split that causes all vassals outside of the losers de jure to become independent all however become the winners tributes and the loser cannot take the title caliphs until the next successor takes the throne.
13. If you have the Caliph as a Vassal you can scheme to revoke the title and take it for yourself given certain condition this will also cause vassals to have a very negative opinion of you and confer decadence

All Religions

15. Completely possessing another Organized religions Holy sites confers 5 MA (Needs to be another FAITH I.E Muslims possessing Constantinople or Christian possessing Bagdhad overlapping Centers of Religion does not count) Also if there exists a an empire with the emperor belonging to a particular faith that faith gains 10 MA. Simply does not make any sense for the Shia empire stretching from Iberia to Constantinople to be stuck at 20
 
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loup99

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1. Iqta members are more likely to gain the "Ambitious" trait
Why?

2. Decadence causes negative opinion in your vassals -5 per 10% this replaces the invasion
Would a -50 penalty be sufficient to model the consequences of such a high level of decadence?

3. Vassal AI will be more likely to aspire to having a kingdom title
4. Vassal reaction to raised crown authority is greater as is willingness to lower it (how much greater is debatable)
5. Vassals outside de jure territory might ask to become a tributary instead of a vassal and if reject will be disappointed (I don't have horse lords so this might not be something that makes all that much sense it just sounded like a good idea)
Specifically for Islamic characters?

5. Powerful vassals in de jure territory might aspire to usurp the caliph title (different requrments for different caliphates for instance Sunnis by piety and Shias by Sayyid or Mirza trait)
Good idea.

6. When a Muslim with the Caliph as head usurps or creates a kingdom the caliph may either legitimize it or reject it. Legitimizing it leads to a positive opinion from the creator of the kingdom while rejecting it leads to mutual negative opinions if the king is a vassal the caliph is likely to strip him of the title and if he is independent the caliph can give the right to invading the kingdom to a vassal of his choosing or be requested for it (reflecting things like the Samanid invasion of the Saffarids at the urging of the Abbasid caliph) also part of it should be dependent on proximity and importance of the title with regards to legitimacy I don't think the caliph gives a shit of a Muslim claims the kingdom of Perm for instance
Interesting suggestion.

7. There can be two Caliphs maximum at any given time (per sect), Sunni muslims ca declare themselves caliphs occupying only Cordoba
Only one can the head of the religion at a time though.

8. Independent Shias and Ibadis can proclaim themselves Imams with either sufficient piety or the right blood line (Sayyid, Mizra) giving themselves a +1 Piety/Month and +5 Opinion (Title hierarchy: Caliph>Imam>Secular title)
Is there a precedent for this historically?

9. Druze, Sufi (Harufi), Yazidi, Zikri should be separate branches and the Jurisprudences should instead represent heresies (I.E Hanafi, Hanbali, Malik) and they should confer a -10 religious differences between each other.
Will have to discuss this internally.

10. Pagan converts gain folk islam as opposed to any specific form (Unless the are neighbors to a settled realm that has a specific form) folk islam do not get any of the decisions associated with common islam aside from Hajj nor become neither Imams or Caliphs upon settling, feudalizing or becoming a republic the choice of Sect and Jurisprudence appeares as an event to the player.
What do you mean by "folk islam"?

11. Muslims cannot declare Jihad (as a form of crusade) standard holy war is renamed Jihad
I'm not sure on this one.

12. Depose Rival Caliph is a Casus Belli that is against all other Caliphs (Irrespective of sect) upon winning your opponent loses the Title of Caliph and this causes a split that causes all vassals outside of the losers de jure to become independent all however become the winners tributes and the loser cannot take the title caliphs until the next successor takes the throne.
Interesting suggestion, what historical precedent did you have in mind?

13. If you have the Caliph as a Vassal you can scheme to revoke the title and take it for yourself given certain condition this will also cause vassals to have a very negative opinion of you and confer decadence
What conditions did you have in mind?

15. Completely possessing another Organized religions Holy sites confers 5 MA (Needs to be another FAITH I.E Muslims possessing Constantinople or Christian possessing Bagdhad overlapping Centers of Religion does not count) Also if there exists a an empire with the emperor belonging to a particular faith that faith gains 10 MA. Simply does not make any sense for the Shia empire stretching from Iberia to Constantinople to be stuck at 20
Could potentially be too mighty and destroy balance given all of the Reformed Pagan holy sites, as well as for the Christian emperors at different start dates.
 

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Why?


Would a -50 penalty be sufficient to model the consequences of such a high level of decadence?


Specifically for Islamic characters?


Good idea.


Interesting suggestion.


Only one can the head of the religion at a time though.


Is there a precedent for this historically?


Will have to discuss this internally.


What do you mean by "folk islam"?


I'm not sure on this one.


Interesting suggestion, what historical precedent did you have in mind?


What conditions did you have in mind?


Could potentially be too mighty and destroy balance given all of the Reformed Pagan holy sites, as well as for the Christian emperors at different start dates.

For the second caliph can't you mod in something on the lines of an antipope?
 

mrstevehazzard

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It's of course outside of the main scope of the mod, but there's definitely historical precedent for multiple Caliphs of the same sect of Islam. The Umayyads declared themselves Caliph opposing the Abbasids in the 900s AD, and the Ottomons did the same in the 1500s.
 

loup99

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It's of course outside of the main scope of the mod, but there's definitely historical precedent for multiple Caliphs of the same sect of Islam. The Umayyads declared themselves Caliph opposing the Abbasids in the 900s AD, and the Ottomons did the same in the 1500s.
That I'm aware of (even if it is, as you mention, a bit later), but I was more curious on the deposition CB and plotting suggestions.

For the second caliph can't you mod in something on the lines of an antipope?
We could have a title, but it wouldn't be the head of the religion. The Antipope system wouldn't really fit for the Caliphate as far as I see it.
 

fredrikslicer

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A means of encouraging rebellions and schemes but might be a bit excessive

Would a -50 penalty be sufficient to model the consequences of such a high level of decadence?
Sounds about right

Specifically for Islamic characters?
Good point it should apply for every realm


Is there a precedent for this historically?
Oman declared itself an Imamate in the 8th century and Fatmids inherited their title from the first shia Imam technically anyone who has the right bloodline could proclaim himself imam but doing so while under another ruler would be an open challenge. So there is some precedence. Also we could say that the Ayatollah is the Imam of Persia and the Safavids were the Supreme spiritual director for the Qizilibash which for all intents and purposes is the position of a shia Imam and it should be noted that the Safavids did claim descent from Muhammed. A lot of muslim titles sound different but are essentially the same.

What do you mean by "folk islam"?
Essentially the practice of the basic tenets of Islam along with other ethnic customs and rituals.

I'm not sure on this one.
They already have invasions and Im not sure Islam ever had something that acted exactly like a crusade like how Jihads does in this game.

Interesting suggestion, what historical precedent did you have in mind?
The casus belli itself is primarily a way for caliphates to come to a head and resolve the dispute seemed logical otherwise the opponents caliphate title should dissolve upon losing all his territory so he doesn't clog the drain for other potential once so to speak (The caliphates of the east and west never really had the opportunity to come to blows so...). As for the split of his territories that can easily be explained as the caliphal title giving him universal authority but without it he only has the authority of his regional title and after such a handy defeat he can't even claim it militarily. The tributary part is based on morocco paying tribute to the hafsids after they got their asses kicked and the hafsids claimed the caliphate.

What conditions did you have in mind?
High piety, plot intrigue, the right bloodline, imperial title perhaps so forth


Could potentially be too mighty and destroy balance given all of the Reformed Pagan holy sites, as well as for the Christian emperors at different start dates.
Point
 

loup99

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A means of encouraging rebellions and schemes but might be a bit excessive
I think it would be a bit arbitrary and excessive, as you mention.

Sounds about right
I'm not sure on the balance of that. The current system is more gradual and consistent.

Good point it should apply for every realm
Crown authority penalties can be raised, but aren't they already quite significant? As for vassals being likely to create kingdoms, they do it once they hold enough lands.

5. Vassals outside de jure territory might ask to become a tributary instead of a vassal and if reject will be disappointed (I don't have horse lords so this might not be something that makes all that much sense it just sounded like a good idea)
Is there any precedent for this?

Oman declared itself an Imamate in the 8th century and Fatmids inherited their title from the first shia Imam technically anyone who has the right bloodline could proclaim himself imam but doing so while under another ruler would be an open challenge. So there is some precedence. Also we could say that the Ayatollah is the Imam of Persia and the Safavids were the Supreme spiritual director for the Qizilibash which for all intents and purposes is the position of a shia Imam and it should be noted that the Safavids did claim descent from Muhammed. A lot of muslim titles sound different but are essentially the same.
OK, so a bit outside the main scope of the mod, but something to keep in mind.

Essentially the practice of the basic tenets of Islam along with other ethnic customs and rituals.
Yes, but in terms of concrete religious branch ingame, do you refer to Sunni Islam?

They already have invasions and Im not sure Islam ever had something that acted exactly like a crusade like how Jihads does in this game.
I believe it balances itself out.

The casus belli itself is primarily a way for caliphates to come to a head and resolve the dispute seemed logical otherwise the opponents caliphate title should dissolve upon losing all his territory so he doesn't clog the drain for other potential once so to speak (The caliphates of the east and west never really had the opportunity to come to blows so...). As for the split of his territories that can easily be explained as the caliphal title giving him universal authority but without it he only has the authority of his regional title and after such a handy defeat he can't even claim it militarily. The tributary part is based on morocco paying tribute to the hafsids after they got their asses kicked and the hafsids claimed the caliphate.
Interesting idea.

High piety, plot intrigue, the right bloodline, imperial title perhaps so forth
OK.
 

fredrikslicer

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I think it would be a bit arbitrary and excessive, as you mention.
Yeah I agree

I'm not sure on the balance of that. The current system is more gradual and consistent.
Isn't the current system minor debuffs and then an invasion by randomly generated dynasties that are easily smacked down? How is that more consistent then a gradually increasing malus? not to mention more effective


Crown authority penalties can be raised, but aren't they already quite significant? As for vassals being likely to create kingdoms, they do it once they hold enough lands.
True I just thought they should be more active in seeking to obtain land in the relevant area instead of spreading themselves out it was a while ago that I originally wrote this (these suggestions are a copy from a previous post) and I recall being annoyed over that.

Is there any precedent for this?
-Ish the real life version would be the increasingly fading abbasid control over egypt and persia where the vassals would become independent to the point where they were independent and since there isn't really an autonomy mechanic in that sense, railroading it via event isn't fun and independence revolts are ineffectual and not the same this seems to be the most elegant middle ground

Yes, but in terms of concrete religious branch ingame, do you refer to Sunni Islam?
If they converted via Sunni character yes of course now that I think about it maybe folk islam should be a sub-sect within the various branches of islam instead
 

loup99

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Isn't the current system minor debuffs and then an invasion by randomly generated dynasties that are easily smacked down? How is that more consistent then a gradually increasing malus? not to mention more effective
Maybe both could be combined? -1 per 2% and the current system?

True I just thought they should be more active in seeking to obtain land in the relevant area instead of spreading themselves out it was a while ago that I originally wrote this (these suggestions are a copy from a previous post) and I recall being annoyed over that.
We will work on dynamic dejure and restricting some CBs, so hopefully that will be able to adress the issue.

-Ish the real life version would be the increasingly fading abbasid control over egypt and persia where the vassals would become independent to the point where they were independent and since there isn't really an autonomy mechanic in that sense, railroading it via event isn't fun and independence revolts are ineffectual and not the same this seems to be the most elegant middle ground
Could be a potential compromise option then. As you may or may not know, tributaries in the mod usually stay even after the death of rulers.

If they converted via Sunni character yes of course now that I think about it maybe folk islam should be a sub-sect within the various branches of islam instead
But what would the difference be with how it is now?
 

fredrikslicer

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Maybe both could be combined? -1 per 2% and the current system?
Yeah sounds good

We will work on dynamic dejure and restricting some CBs, so hopefully that will be able to adress the issue.
That's good

Could be a potential compromise option then. As you may or may not know, tributaries in the mod usually stay even after the death of rulers.
Oui

But what would the difference be with how it is now?
Less revolt risk from infidel counties, less malus from vassals, faster conversion but no access to things like Fiqhir events or the like upon feudalizing or becoming a republic you have to choose a jurisprudence
 

loup99

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Less revolt risk from infidel counties, less malus from vassals, faster conversion but no access to things like Fiqhir events or the like upon feudalizing or becoming a republic you have to choose a jurisprudence
I'm not convinced that a separate branch for those converting is necessary.
 

loup99

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Just an update to get the status of this clear: in order to start working upon this, I need to have @Enlil 's work on the mod. Given that I haven't heard of him for four months, this may or may not be impossible to do, and we will have to reconsider it if that is the case.

Also they wouldn't be iata until Feudal
What do you mean?
 
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fredrikslicer

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Just an update to get the status of this clear: in order to start working upon this, I need to have @Enlil 's work on the mod. Given that I haven't heard of him for four months, this may or may not be impossible to do, and we will have to reconsider it if that is the case.


What do you mean?
I was thinking shouldn't Iqta become available when you feudalize but then I remembered that its a strange form of turkic succession Paradox decided to for god knows what reason so whatever
 

loup99

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Quoting these posts here instead of in the other thread in order to keep discussion on topic:
oh also, seeing as the next DLC will let you just flat out build your own damn religion, any ideas or plans for a "DLC dynamic Islam" for anyone looking to play as the Prophet? it would be awesome as hell to just completely DIY your own Islam.
Per definition you won't be able to play the Prophet before the character is landed, which means you won't have the ability to create your own Islam. However, depending on how the game evolves and the choices you make Islam may turn out to be different than in our reality. If you really do want to build your own quasi-Islamic religion though I would recommend instead reforming the Semetic Pagan religion and build upon that.

I think there should be a rules option where you can have a more historical Rise of Islam for if you're starting in the mid-500's or later where East Rome and the Sassanids start a little weaker or you can have a powerful Rise of Islam akin to the Mongol invasions to guarantee they steamroll North Africa, The Middle East and Persia if you're starting from 476.
You will both have the option of a strictly historical outcome and giving a bit more troops.
 

aruon

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Quoting these posts here instead of in the other thread in order to keep discussion on topic:

Per definition you won't be able to play the Prophet before the character is landed, which means you won't have the ability to create your own Islam. However, depending on how the game evolves and the choices you make Islam may turn out to be different than in our reality. If you really do want to build your own quasi-Islamic religion though I would recommend instead reforming the Semetic Pagan religion and build upon that.
alright. fair enough.

You will both have the option of a strictly historical outcome and giving a bit more troops.
oh thank god (thank allah?). i just had to to some serious character switching to make sure islam took over the persian empire. despite prophet/caliph Jabril having a greater than 3:1 ratio (roughly 45000 vs 14000) of troops to the vast persian empire in my game they were split into 3 parts and were just screwing around at everywhere between Medina and Tehran and even losing to stacks to the point that they were only around 4000-6000 strong.

seriously, islam had almost been deep sixed by the time i went **** it and just used noai and yesman to force the war to end.
 

Lemont Elwood

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If you implement something like that, it'd be good to have Game Rules. Probably a Historical, Dynamic, and Open set (Open being the rule that would allow things like a female Prophet).
 

loup99

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If you implement something like that, it'd be good to have Game Rules. Probably a Historical, Dynamic, and Open set (Open being the rule that would allow things like a female Prophet).
The game rules for the beta version we currently have will be kept, although "open" is not planned, because dynamic would not be railroaded to a certain outcome.
 

darkemperor

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Hashim was not the grandfather of Prothet Muhammad P.B.U.H but rather his great grand father.his grandfather was Abd al-Muttalib and his father was Abdallah and his mothers name was Aminah who was the daughter of Wahb ibn Abd Manaf
 
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