• Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

aruon

UwU?
33 Badges
Mar 21, 2012
5.980
3.648
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
If Muhammed is a woman, would a direct daughter be considered a legitimate successor to the caliphate or would it have to be a son?
in addition to Omegas' question, can Muhammed even BE a woman? even today in the middle east, women's rights in most places basically put them somewhere slightly above or equal to cattle. and a female prophet in the middle east in the 7th century...
 
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:

Omega124

First Lieutenant
64 Badges
Jun 30, 2010
209
14
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
in addition to Omegas' question, can Muhammed even BE a woman? even today in the middle east, women's rights in most places basically put them somewhere slightly above or equal to cattle. and a female prophet in the middle east in the 7th century...
- Could be a women, gives a more egalitarian religion, but less chance of success
Says so in the OP.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

loup99

Godogost of Armorica
79 Badges
Jan 22, 2013
16.281
4.960
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
in addition to Omegas' question, can Muhammed even BE a woman? even today in the middle east, women's rights in most places basically put them somewhere slightly above or equal to cattle. and a female prophet in the middle east in the 7th century...
I don't see why a women could not get a vision and become the prophet of a religion. However, as specified in the OP, the religion would have less chance of success given the unequal situation of women at the time.

If Muhammed is a woman, would a direct daughter be considered a legitimate successor to the caliphate or would it have to be a son?
Good question, haven't considered it. I think that if the first prophet is accepted to have been a woman, then a daughter should have the possibility of inheriting in the absence of sons.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Erik W

WTWSMS - Second-in-Command
50 Badges
Jul 30, 2012
2.826
587
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Darkest Hour
Good question, haven't considered it. I think that if the first prophet is accepted to have been a woman, then a daughter should have the possibility of inheriting in the absence of sons.
Maybe a possibility of a matriarchical religion? Daughters above sons in succession and such?
 
  • 3
Reactions:

TheAnguishedOne

Field Marshal
38 Badges
May 2, 2014
4.689
820
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
Maybe a possibility of a matriarchical religion? Daughters above sons in succession and such?
I imagine that should be quite difficult, but certainly possible.
 

starwarsfan541

Shah of Gloria Regni
59 Badges
Apr 9, 2010
3.719
1.054
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
in addition to Omegas' question, can Muhammed even BE a woman? even today in the middle east, women's rights in most places basically put them somewhere slightly above or equal to cattle. and a female prophet in the middle east in the 7th century...
Before Islam there were some examples of female rulers of some tribes, so its definitely plausible, or at least I think so
 
  • 1
Reactions:

aruon

UwU?
33 Badges
Mar 21, 2012
5.980
3.648
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
Maybe a possibility of a matriarchical religion? Daughters above sons in succession and such?
that would be awesome. i'd love to see a matriarchal religion. every daughter will be named wonder woman.
 

housemartell

Second Lieutenant
20 Badges
Oct 30, 2013
195
368
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
There was also Sajah, a woman who claimed to be a prophet after the death of Muhammad and gained over four thousand followers, so the idea is definitely not implausible.
 
  • 8
Reactions:

starwarsfan541

Shah of Gloria Regni
59 Badges
Apr 9, 2010
3.719
1.054
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
There was also Sajah, a woman who claimed to be a prophet after the death of Muhammad and gained over four thousand followers, so the idea is definitely not implausible.
Exactly, it should be a fun playthrough imo
 
  • 2
Reactions:

aruon

UwU?
33 Badges
Mar 21, 2012
5.980
3.648
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
There was also Sajah, a woman who claimed to be a prophet after the death of Muhammad and gained over four thousand followers, so the idea is definitely not implausible.
really? damn. a helpful rating from me then!
 

Numahr

Lux Invicta Lord Spiritual
76 Badges
Oct 18, 2004
1.989
390
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Impressive plan...
On female Islamic leaders, don't forget Ghazala Haruriyah
In LI we gave her descendants a pretty feminist religion.

A suggestion: from my readings, I understand that the deserts of Palestine and the Middle East were hosts of many heterodox variants of mainstream monotheisms, which the Sassanid and Byzantine capitals could not really bring to the mainstream. It then seems that these populations saw the new Prophet as an attractive alternative and coalesced into what became Islam (hence all these variant stories on the same topics such as the narrative of Mary and Jesus, and the fact that Jesus is given such a prominent role in the Quran, more than the Prophet himself).

-> in game mechanics, you could simulate this dynamic quite easily I think:
- encourage monotheism heresy spread in desert provinces of the right region, depending on certain conditions for MTTH parameters of course (MA etc.)
- facilitate conversion of these provinces to the new Islamic faith upon its creation
- upon such conversion, make them part of the Islamic realm, as becoming Muslim at this point in time means accepting the Prophet's / Caliph's authority

This way you could have a form of "organic" spread of Islam at the margins of the other empires.
 
  • 4
  • 4
Reactions:

loup99

Godogost of Armorica
79 Badges
Jan 22, 2013
16.281
4.960
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
A suggestion: from my readings, I understand that the deserts of Palestine and the Middle East were hosts of many heterodox variants of mainstream monotheisms, which the Sassanid and Byzantine capitals could not really bring to the mainstream. It then seems that these populations saw the new Prophet as an attractive alternative and coalesced into what became Islam (hence all these variant stories on the same topics such as the narrative of Mary and Jesus, and the fact that Jesus is given such a prominent role in the Quran, more than the Prophet himself).

-> in game mechanics, you could simulate this dynamic quite easily I think:
- encourage monotheism heresy spread in desert provinces of the right region, depending on certain conditions for MTTH parameters of course (MA etc.)
- facilitate conversion of these provinces to the new Islamic faith upon its creation
- upon such conversion, make them part of the Islamic realm, as becoming Muslim at this point in time means accepting the Prophet's / Caliph's authority

This way you could have a form of "organic" spread of Islam at the margins of the other empires.
Good idea, this is something that would add the dynamic that existed and contribute to historical plausibility.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

DaDerpyDude

Second Lieutenant
31 Badges
Jun 13, 2015
145
107
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
Dead thread, but I'm gonna ask anyway.

You say that the prophet will go to war with Medina if Mecca refuses to convert, but from what I just read, Medina converted peacefully, with minor, landless clans converting first, until some important guy converted and a lot followed him. I suggest that there should also be a multi-option of what happens in Medina, if Medina refuses to convert then the prophet should move to abbysinia (irl he sent some followers there before fleeing mecca), as he had no chance of conquering medina by force (all his stuff was confiscated after he fled mecca due to an assasination plot against him).

Also, there should be an event for an assasination attempt against the prophet, if it succeeds there should be a couple of options IMO:

1. Religion ceases to exist forever.
2. Religion ceases to exist for a while, some decades/year later another prophet rises, claiming to have recieved the rest of the Quran which the original prophet didn't recieve*.
3. Religion continues to exist, however with no clear leader it splits into a couple of branches based on each follower's interpretations and own theology.
4. Religion continues to exist, however instead of one leader a council rules the religion, kinda like a pentarchy but with equal powers and in one place.
5. Religion continues to exist, however an undisputable leader is chosen to be the successor to the prophet.

*This could possibly be a thing with the other options too, with one of the successors claiming to also recieve revelations.


Also thank god that this has a redo thingy, I deleated half of what I wrote accidently twice.
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:

loup99

Godogost of Armorica
79 Badges
Jan 22, 2013
16.281
4.960
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Dead thread, but I'm gonna ask anyway.
What do you meany by "dead"? That you are worried about necromancy? Two months isn't a very long time for a thread, and we try to answer all posts in this forum, so don't be scared of asking. I believe 6 months or so is usually considered as necromancy, unless the thread starter brings it up.

You say that the prophet will go to war with Medina if Mecca refuses to convert, but from what I just read, Medina converted peacefully, with minor, landless clans converting first, until some important guy converted and a lot followed him. I suggest that there should also be a multi-option of what happens in Medina, if Medina refuses to convert then the prophet should move to abbysinia (irl he sent some followers there before fleeing mecca), as he had no chance of conquering medina by force (all his stuff was confiscated after he fled mecca due to an assasination plot against him).
Historically, Medina did indeed convert without Muhammed and his followers going to war against it. Within this plan, the idea was that Mecca and Medina would always be the two nerve centres of Islam, given the importance the two cities had for the faith. The choice to make it into a declaration war against Medina was mostly technical with that in mind, given that the realms of the Islamic religion would use it as a powerbase, rather than having troops out of nowhere or a more railroaded option around Mecca. As for the path to Abyssinia, some followers were indeed sent to there, but it was a very small number.

Also, there should be an event for an assasination attempt against the prophet, if it succeeds there should be a couple of options IMO:

1. Religion ceases to exist forever.
2. Religion ceases to exist for a while, some decades/year later another prophet rises, claiming to have recieved the rest of the Quran which the original prophet didn't recieve*.
3. Religion continues to exist, however with no clear leader it splits into a couple of branches based on each follower's interpretations and own theology.
4. Religion continues to exist, however instead of one leader a council rules the religion, kinda like a pentarchy but with equal powers and in one place.
5. Religion continues to exist, however an undisputable leader is chosen to be the successor to the prophet.

*This could possibly be a thing with the other options too, with one of the successors claiming to also recieve revelations.
This I don't think would be a good idea, as plots to kill characters already exist in the game. With that in mind I don't see why a railroading event should be in place, as the game already allows for this. But thinking upon the consequences of a such assassination is something we could work upon.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

aruon

UwU?
33 Badges
Mar 21, 2012
5.980
3.648
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
i think if the Prophet dies through violence prior to forming an empire to support a caliphate, i could see #5 happening simply because of mechanics along with moral authority plummeting spectacularly. then it's more likely that the suuni-shia split can never happen, and that islam begins to play more like vanilla judaism- simply just trying to keep the land you have and/or expanding without converting for decades.
 

Raga-Zun

Second Lieutenant
47 Badges
Jul 15, 2015
139
40
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
The Arabs managed to conquer so many peoples of the Byzantine and Sassanian empires so easily because both empires pushed for a religiously homogeneous empire thus alienating the non state religions in the empires. Many of the people who did not hold the state religions were persuaded by the Arab leaders saying that they would NOT attempt to force convert them, and apart from the tax on non-muslims, they would be mainly left alone. This in many cases forced tolerance among the early caliphs helped them stop civil strife and major religious uprisings while their rule remained tenuous. Over the centuries they became more strict on other religious groups prompting most to convert rather than live as second class citizens.

I think it would be a good idea to give a decision or event decision to the first Caliph before his/her conquest begins. The decision being, will you be tolerant to other religious groups or not? If you choose yes you have a lower conversion chance but also lower unrest in your regions. If you choose to not tolerate the heretical religions you gain a bonus to conversion chance but much higher unrest. Ideally you could incorporate this into an event chain around the Arab conquests but that's unnecessary.

What do you think?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

loup99

Godogost of Armorica
79 Badges
Jan 22, 2013
16.281
4.960
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
The Arabs managed to conquer so many peoples of the Byzantine and Sassanian empires so easily because both empires pushed for a religiously homogeneous empire thus alienating the non state religions in the empires. Many of the people who did not hold the state religions were persuaded by the Arab leaders saying that they would NOT attempt to force convert them, and apart from the tax on non-muslims, they would be mainly left alone. This in many cases forced tolerance among the early caliphs helped them stop civil strife and major religious uprisings while their rule remained tenuous. Over the centuries they became more strict on other religious groups prompting most to convert rather than live as second class citizens.

I think it would be a good idea to give a decision or event decision to the first Caliph before his/her conquest begins. The decision being, will you be tolerant to other religious groups or not? If you choose yes you have a lower conversion chance but also lower unrest in your regions. If you choose to not tolerate the heretical religions you gain a bonus to conversion chance but much higher unrest. Ideally you could incorporate this into an event chain around the Arab conquests but that's unnecessary.

What do you think?
My preferred system for tolerance would be a more general one similar to the one Numahr suggested (being the one LI uses):
You could have a look at how we dealt with this issue:

- different religions have different "mentalities" affecting conversion: Ancestral (unreformed) do not convert well but resist conversion better, Bastion of the Faith (reformed pagan) are super resistant to conversion but still not very potent at converting, Proselyte religions are good at converting but vulnerable to conversion from same religious group (dynamic swap within the same group, so Sunnis can easily become Shias but it more difficult to turn them orthodox). This cannot be changed by the player as it is deeply rooted in the religion's doctrine (Judaism cannot be turned into a proselyte religion).

- in addition some religions have more or less "sectarianism": this gives an negative general_opinion but roughly double same_religion_opinion. So a communitarian religion like Judaism has -20 opinion from the rest of the world but a net +20 with fellow Jews.

- finally we have a 3-level tolerance law. The scope of the tolerance law is affected by sectarianism: sectarian religions cannot go very tolerant. Tolerance helps you deal with religious diversity but intolerance goes as far as giving you a special CB.
That would allow for a more standardised mechanics which is not only specific to Islam.
 
Last edited:
  • 3
Reactions:

Raga-Zun

Second Lieutenant
47 Badges
Jul 15, 2015
139
40
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
Fair enough, i thought you were going for more historicity in that area that's only why i suggested it.
 

Tabris01

Za Ra
60 Badges
Jan 14, 2011
1.158
307
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
Fair enough, i thought you were going for more historicity in that area that's only why i suggested it.
One could give Islam the ability to change its character depending on the circumstances of its creation