Ringworld Industrial segments

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Lorenerd11

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[Sister threads: Ecumenopolis rework | Building/job changes ]

With the Dev Diary #190, we learned that the next update will come with new Industrial districts, including new Industrial ringworld segments. In this thread I will describe my concept for how these Industrial segments could function.

Note: I've updated this thread to account for the increased number and reduced size of ringworld segments.

1. Industrial segments

Industrial segments would produce base +8 Metallurgist and +8 Artisan jobs. Much like in my job shifting suggestion and my Ecumenopolis rework, these jobs could be shifted with 2 planetary decisions capable of applying 5 focus modifiers (each decision shifting 4 jobs per district), and more jobs can be added with Forge and Factory buildings (+4 jobs per district with each upgrade)

Major Military Focus: +4 Metallurgist, −4 Artisan​
Minor Military Focus: +2 Metallurgist, −2 Artisan​
None: No effect​
Minor Civilian Focus: +2 Artisan, −2 Metallurgist​
Major Civilian Focus: +4 Artisan, −4 Metallurgist​
T2 Forge: +1 Metallurgist​
T3 Forge: +2 Metallurgist​
T2 Factory: +1 Artisan​
T3 Factory: +2 Artisan​

Here is how many jobs per segment would be produced with every configuration:

[no building] (10)
T2 Forge (11)
T3 Forge (12)
T2 Factory (11)
T3 Factory (12)
T2 Both (12)
Major Military
M+9, A+1​
M+10, A+1​
M+11, A+1​
M+9, A+2​
M+9, A+3​
M+10, A+2​
Minor Military
M+7, A+3​
M+8, A+3​
M+9, A+3​
M+7, A+4​
M+7, A+5​
M+8, A+4​
[no focus]
M·A+5​
M+6, A+5​
M+7, A+5​
A+6, M+5​
A+7, M+5​
M·A+6​
Minor Civilian
A+7, M+3​
A+7, M+4​
A+7, M+5​
A+8, M+3​
A+9, M+3​
A+8, M+4​
Major Civilian
A+9, M+1​
A+9, M+2​
A+9, M+3​
A+10, M+1​
A+11, M+1​
A+10, M+2​
[no building] (10)
T2 Forge (11)
T3 Forge (12)
T2 Factory (11)
T3 Factory (12)
T2 Both (12)
Major Military
F+9, A+1​
F+10, A+1​
F+11, A+1​
F+9, A+2​
F+9, A+3​
F+10, A+2​
[Minor Military]
F+7, A+3​
F+8, A+3​
F+9, A+3​
F+7, A+4​
F+7, A+5​
F+8, A+4​
no focus
F·A+5​
F+6, A+5​
F+7, A+5​
A+6, F+5​
A+7, F+5​
F·A+6​
Minor Civilian
A+7, F+3​
A+7, F+4​
A+7, F+5​
A+8, F+3​
A+9,F+3​
A+8, F+4​
Major Civilian
A+9, F+1​
A+9, F+2​
A+9, F+3​
A+10, F+1​
A+11, F+1​
A+10, F+2​
Like on Ecumenopoli, Rogue Servitors will have the same base jobs as organic empires and default to Minor Military Focus, while other Gestalts will simply produce base +16 Foundry Drone jobs, building up to +24 Foundry Drone jobs with T3 Forges.

There's however some worry that allowing ringworlds to focus fully on alloys would render Ecumenopoli obsolete. A way to address this could be to remove the higher focus tiers, and having Ringworlds only use 3 focus settings like on regular planets.

Military Focus: +4 Metallurgist, −4 Artisan​
None: No effect​
Civilian Focus: +4 Artisan, −4 Metallurgist​

This would result in maximum amount of pops working a single job capping at 20 per segment, with 4 jobs always staying behind:

[no building] (16)
T2 Forge (20)
T3 Forge (24)
T2 Factory (20)
T3 Factory (24)
T2 Both (24)
Military Focus
M+12, A+4​
M+16, A+4​
M+20, A+4​
M+12, A+8​
M·A+12​
M+16, A+8​
[no focus]
M·A+8​
M+12, A+8​
M+16, A+8​
A+12, M+8​
A+16, M+8​
M·A+12​
Civilian Focus
A+12, M+4​
A+12, M+8​
M,A+12​
A+16, M+8​
A+20, M+4​
A+16, M+8​
[no building] (16)
T2 Forge (20)
T3 Forge (24)
T2 Factory (20)
T3 Factory (24)
T2 Both (24)
[Military Focus]
F+12, A+4​
F+16, A+4​
F+20, A+4​
F+12, A+8​
F·A+12​
F+16, A+8​
no focus
F·A+8​
F+12, A+8​
F+16, A+8​
A+12, F+8​
A+16, F+8​
F·A+12​
Civilian Focus
A+12, F+4​
A+12, F+8​
F·A+12​
A+16, F+8​
A+20, F+4​
A+16, F+8​
Either way, I'm open to shifting some numbers as necessary, so feedback is welcome.
 
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--
The addition of Industrial ringworld segments as a replacement for Foundry and Factory buildings has already been confirmed by devs. Factories and Foundries are now planet unique buildings boosting these districts.
Habitats and Ring Worlds get appropriate Industrial districts.
Read the dev diary linked at the beginning of the thread, please.
 
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My first thoughts: I think the third concept would be closest to appropriate, in that it can get you up to 24 jobs per 20 housing ... though, this exact number should depend on how Ecus get rebalanced.

However, one thing I do think is that a Ringworld industrial district shouldn't be able to fully focus down alloys without having any consumer goods production at all. Why does an Ecumenopolis exist at all, then (other than flavor)? So, only what you termed as "minor focus" should be a thing (be that via planetary decision or designation). In essence, a Ringworld district is supposed to be roughly as good as 4-5 regular planetary districts at the very least - the farming district is worth 10 planetary farming districts, and the others don't have a direct planetary comparison; research gets 20 jobs vs 3 for habitat research, that's almost 7 times better. When I say "as good" or "better" here, I mean in terms of sprawl caused, alternatively jobs/district produced (ultimately jobs/district upkeep).

Upon further consideration, a planetary industrial district is expected to provide 2 jobs by itself, and up to 2 more from building a specialization building - this sets a ratio of 50% from the district and 50% from the building, I think it's fair to apply this ratio to Ringworlds too. Next up, actual number of jobs. Considering that an industrial Ring segment will be easiest to compare with the habitat industrial district ... The latter was said to give 2 jobs baseline, same as a planetary district (source). So, 12 jobs from the district, and +4/+8 from the specialization building (slight deviation from the 50/50 ratio), or 10 jobs from the district and +5/+10 from the building (50/50 ratio, but puts a bit more pressure on having the building). It is worth noting that both the Habitat and the planetary industrial districts will be unable to provide all the housing for a fully-specialized industrial district, and I think this should carry over to the RIngworld section too - as such it should only cover the jobs produced by the district itself.

The Ring section can be more or less powerful depending on whether it'll need rare resource upkeep or not.
 
I've updated the original post, check it again for more info.

So, 12 jobs from the district, and +4/+8 from the specialization building (slight deviation from the 50/50 ratio)
So, like in Concept 2? :p

10 jobs from the district and +5/+10 from the building (50/50 ratio, but puts a bit more pressure on having the building)
Ringworlds usually add 10x the jobs of regular planetary districts (or research labs), I think it would be weird to reduce that to only 5x for the Industrial district.

However, one thing I do think is that a Ringworld industrial district shouldn't be able to fully focus down alloys without having any consumer goods production at all. Why does an Ecumenopolis exist at all, then (other than flavor)?
Hm, we could either get rid of higher tier focus decisions, resulting in 4 jobs always staying behind.

no building (16)
T2 Forge (20)
T3 Forge (24)
T2 Factory (20)
T3 Factory (24)
T2 Both (24)
Military Focus
M+12, A+4​
M+16, A+4​
M+20, A+4​
M+12, A+8​
M,A+12​
M+16, A+8​
no focus
M,A+8​
M+12, A+8​
M+16, A+8​
A+12, M+8​
A+16, M+8​
M,A+12​
Civilian Focus
A+12, M+4​
A+12, M+8​
M,A+12​
A+16, M+8​
A+20, M+4​
A+16, M+8​
 
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Ringworlds usually add 10x the jobs of regular planetary districts (or research labs), I think it would be weird to reduce that to only 5x for the Industrial district.

I mean, if you go with that logic, say hello to 20 base jobs, 10 each, and the specialization building adding another 10 per tier :p

I can't say I'm seeing that logic, though - Housing is a straight up x10, yes; Commercial is ... I don't even know what it is, other than ridiculous (1:1:2 ratio of ruler/specialist/worker jobs, with 5 really good ruler jobs given the upkeep); Research is 10x a basic lab with the housing to go, or 6.67 habitat research districts; farming is 10x the planetary farming district. What I'm seeing is that the "basic" (raw resource, housing) districts get multiplied by 10, the specialist ones are ... more special.

Begs the question "why would I *ever* want an Ecumenopolis" then, though. I had compared with the habitat science district since it does exist, and the habitat industrial district, since it was so far announced as having 2 jobs, 3 housing.

And now for a little thought experiment:
Let's say the Industrial Segment gives 24 jobs, and your finished Ring will have 16 such segments (and 4 housing ones). That's ... 384 refined resource jobs, with a possibility of 320 metallurgists or artisans. That's ... a lot. Like, almost two full Ecus worth of alloys. Sounds like a lot, right? Until you realize that it kicks in way later than an Ecumenopolis, under regular circumstances (*), and costs a whole lot more to build. So maybe, in retrospect, 20 base jobs and +10/+20 from specialist buildings isn't that bad of an idea? :p

(*) In my experience, it is very feasible to have an Ecumenopolis up and running by 2300, a Ringworld is 2330 at the earliest if you have to build it on your own, and 2300 if you luck out and find a ruined one.
 
I mean, if you go with that logic, say hello to 20 base jobs, 10 each, and the specialization building adding another 10 per tier :p
Yeah, I'm trying to reconcile that by creating a middle point, where you start with a little less, 16 jobs, 8 each, and then you can either add 4 to both or 8 to one.

Commercial is ... I don't even know what it is, other than ridiculous (1:1:2 ratio of ruler/specialist/worker jobs, with 5 really good ruler jobs given the upkeep)
It was confirmed in the dev diary that Artisans will no longer be present on Commercial segments, so that ratio's definitely going to change. ;)
 
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This is yet another reason why the industrial districts change is a bad idea: It erodes the distinctions between the various late game advanced worlds. Right now, there's a solid mix:
Minerals/Energy: Habitats (and megastructures)
Food/Research/Trade: Ringworld
Alloys/CG: Ecumenepoli

Since all of these cost influence, there's a trade off; you have to prioritize one or the other.
This change would mix all of them into an indistinct blob, in which one will be better than the others (probably ringworlds), and so that one will just be spammed while the others will fall by the wayside.

This is also why I'm opposed to research or commercial arcologies; they cut into ringworld's niches too much.
 
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With Dev Diary #192, we now know that we will be able to build 10 segments instead 5, and that individual segments have been adjusted according. Each Industrial segment is stated to provide base +6 Metallurgist and +6 Artisan jobs.

Here's the updated numbers for Industrial segments, with buildings adding 2 jobs each, and modifiers shifting 3 jobs each:

[no building] (12)
T2 Forge (14)
T3 Forge (16)
T2 Factory (14)
T3 Factory (16)
T2 Both (16)
Major Military
M+12​
M+14​
M+16​
M+12, A+2​
M+12, A+4​
M+14, A+2​
Minor Military
M+9, A+3​
M+11, A+3​
M+13, A+3​
M+9, A+5​
M+9, A+7​
M+11, A+5​
[no focus]
M+6, A+6​
M+8, A+6​
M+10, A+6​
A+8, M+6​
A+10, M+6​
M+8, A+8​
Minor Civilian
A+9, M+3​
A+9, M+5​
A+9, M+7​
A+11, M+3​
A+13, M+3​
A+11, M+5​
Major Civilian
A+12​
A+12, M+2​
A+12, M+4​
A+14​
A+16​
A+14, M+2​
[no building] (12)
T2 Forge (14)
T3 Forge (16)
T2 Factory (14)
T3 Factory (16)
T2 Both (16)
Major Military
F+12​
F+14​
F+16​
F+12, A+2​
F+12, A+4​
F+14, A+2​
[Minor Military]
F+9, A+3​
F+11, A+3​
F+13, A+3​
F+9, A+5​
F+9, A+7​
F+11, A+5​
[no focus]
F+6, A+6​
F+8, A+6​
F+10, A+6​
A+8, F+6​
A+10, F+6​
F+8, A+8​
Minor Civilian
A+9, F+3​
A+9, F+5​
A+9, F+7​
A+11, F+3​
A+13, F+3​
A+11, F+5​
Major Civilian
A+12​
A+12, F+2​
A+12, F+4​
A+14​
A+16​
A+14, F+2​
 
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The Dev Diary also said this:
The ecumenopolis has a unique distinction of being able to have both the Factory and Foundry building lines on the same planet.
So can Ring World segments have both a Factory and a Foundary (your T2 Both column) or is that ecumenopolis-only?
 
The Dev Diary also said this:

So can Ring World segments have both a Factory and a Foundary (your T2 Both column) or is that ecumenopolis-only?

Ecumenopolis only by the sounds of it. The rules are different because Ecumenopolises are unique in having separate alloy and CG districts, and each of them only benefits from one kind of bonus building, so in effect you're already forced to choose which to prioritize between alloys and CGs when you decide which of the two district types to build. You're not supposed to have multiple bonus buildings to boost the number of jobs in the same district.

That said, I assume the number of extra jobs will scale somehow with the size of the districts (where Ecumenopolis and Ringworld districts are clearly "bigger" than ordinary planet districts).

This is yet another reason why the industrial districts change is a bad idea: It erodes the distinctions between the various late game advanced worlds. Right now, there's a solid mix:
Minerals/Energy: Habitats (and megastructures)
Food/Research/Trade: Ringworld
Alloys/CG: Ecumenepoli

This is assuming you are non-Gestalt and have both the Galactic Wonders and the Arcology Project APs, which I don't think should be compulsory. Also, why should they all be so pigeonholed; what's wrong with a bit of variety in the mid-to-late game in where you put your labs and where you put your foundries?

This goes for Ecumenopolises, too: why are they only able to fit as many researchers or bureaucrats as a normal planet? It's cool that you can make them highly efficient alloy/CG producers, but I don't see why a city-planet can't be good at "urban" jobs more broadly.
 
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This is assuming you are non-Gestalt and have both the Galactic Wonders and the Arcology Project APs, which I don't think should be compulsory. Also, why should they all be so pigeonholed; what's wrong with a bit of variety in the mid-to-late game in where you put your labs and where you put your foundries?

This goes for Ecumenopolises, too: why are they only able to fit as many researchers or bureaucrats as a normal planet? It's cool that you can make them highly efficient alloy/CG producers, but I don't see why a city-planet can't be good at "urban" jobs more broadly.
They aren't technically pigeonholed; you can put labs on an ecu or foundries on a ringworld, and make energy from either via trade. It's just that there's a clear system in which each of the major influence sinks (megastructures/habitats, ringworlds, and ecus) are better for different things with distinct districts to support these things. Making them all have the same types of districts erodes this distinction and will either create a situation in which either:
a) One of these structures is just better then the others (probably ringworlds) because they have stronger overall districts for cheaper, in which case you have no reason to ever build the others.
b) There's still specialization in which each type has its own strengths and weaknesses. In that case, giving them all the same types of districts is just confusing and pointless; that is, in effect, identical to the current system which you can use these structures for something other then what they're optimal at (like the aforementioned research ecu), but it isn't optimal, only now with a bunch of useless districts to clutter up the UI and confuse newer players who don't know which is better.

I do think a bureaucratic ecu would be awesome though, because there's currently no "special" bureaucracy world and it would make perfect sense thematically (Trantor, anyone?). Likewise, replacing the habitat trade district (which is useless) with a fortress district would be a good change in my view. But there shouldn't be too many redundancies or overlaps between the different types.

As for making ecus better at "urban" jobs more broadly, there isn't a flavor reason against it, but a gameplay one: There needs to be a niche for ringworlds, and if ecus are amazing at everything (important), there isn't one.
 
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As for making ecus better at "urban" jobs more broadly, there isn't a flavor reason against it, but a gameplay one: There needs to be a niche for ringworlds, and if ecus are amazing at everything (important), there isn't one.

The niche for Ringworlds is that they're basically gigantic Habitats, creating living space where there was none. They're also not necessarily urban. An Ecumenopolis on the other hand is just urbanization on an existing habitable planet taken to its extreme conclusion.

I see what you are saying about ecu spam dominating the economy, though. I think the problem is that there are too many habitable worlds on default settings, so the cost of giving up the natural resources of a planet doesn't really matter; that means influence, rather than number of planets, becomes the main bottleneck to making more ecus. Also, if ecus are made more versatile then some of their generic bonuses (like the +20% to everything) can be dropped. The point of ecus to me is packing a huge number of urban pops onto a single planet, not being super-efficient in per-pop terms.

On the Ringworld side, I feel like everyone should have access to the energy district, possibly instead of the trade district (in which case, add a merchant or two to the city district). Your economy never needs trade per se, although it might need energy, CGs and/or unity. Trade specialization is gimmicky, and by the time ringworlds are being colonized, most empires don't benefit that much from it compared to just directly making the relevant resources (given that CGs can be manufactured very efficiently by this point, and you don't need much unity to sustain the important unity ambitions). Trade is a lot more efficient if you treat it as a supplementary income source in combination with the conventional output of the colony (i.e. taking into account the passive trade income or pops, and you're also using the amenities of Merchants and Clerks to support more conventional jobs).
 
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Just to put it out there. The way things are set up in dev diary #192 the difference between Ecus and Ring worlds industry is quite clear now.
  • Ring worlds are generalistic
  • Ecumonoplis are specialistic
I say this because ring world industry sections now give 5 of foundry/factory jobs each district with a maximum of 10 districts. Ecus give you 6 jobs of either factories or foundries, but these can go up to planet cap. Ring world sections will go up to 50 jobs while ecus will go up to 150 jobs if you get a 25 size ecu. But a size 17 planet would still net you 102 jobs which is still double that of ring worlds.

Aside from the amount of jobs, the upkeep for districts is lower as well, so you'll get more alloys/cg per mote on an ecu then you get on a ring world.

I am aware of the job modifiers, but these apply to both so calculating these is redundant as it only makes numbers bigger, the difference won't actually change.

I'd say you still want your alloy and consumer goods production on ecumonopolis and food/science on ring worlds.
 
There's however some worry that allowing ringworlds to focus fully on alloys would render Ecumenopoli obsolete.
Just rebalance tech to account for the last few years of "power creep", so we cant hit the end of the tech tree before 2300 on default settings.

Ringworlds become what they were meant to be. then; strong endgame things, with ecumenopoli being mid-late-game things depending on how hard you focus in on them (yes, I normally play on 2.75x tech scaling costs to partially do this [as to fully fix it, tech costs need to be non-linearly re-balanced, alongside admin cap/bureaucrat reworks] ).
 
Just to put it out there. The way things are set up in dev diary #192 the difference between Ecus and Ring worlds industry is quite clear now.
  • Ring worlds are generalistic
  • Ecumonoplis are specialistic
I say this because ring world industry sections now give 5 of foundry/factory jobs each district with a maximum of 10 districts. Ecus give you 6 jobs of either factories or foundries, but these can go up to planet cap. Ring world sections will go up to 50 jobs while ecus will go up to 150 jobs if you get a 25 size ecu. But a size 17 planet would still net you 102 jobs which is still double that of ring worlds.

Aside from the amount of jobs, the upkeep for districts is lower as well, so you'll get more alloys/cg per mote on an ecu then you get on a ring world.
Oh yeah, Ringworlds have 5 jobs each instead 6, my bad. But wait, won't job shifting also be a thing on Ringworlds?