Rheinland DMZ border fix

[Tadelwackel67]

Is their any intend on the developers side to rework/improve the borders for the Rheinland DMZ? The current borders are just wrong and could easily be reworked into something more historically accurate.
For example:

• Splitting the Rehinland state in 2 (western and eastern Rheinland) would allow France to better claim its natural borders (just a personal idea, has nothing to do with bettering the borders of the Rheinland DMZ).
• Trasnfering the 1 province west of the Rhein from the state Hessen to the Moselland (Natural Border of France)
• Creating a Frankfurt state out of southern Hessen to accommodate the DMZ part east of the Rhein.
• Splitting Württemberg into Baden and Württemberg and turning Baden into a DMZ

Here are some more technical things regarding the changes:

• Rheinland (51): remove provinces 3512 6469 6570 9482 529 and turn them into their own state (eastern Rheinland)
• Moselland (42): add province 11560 (currently part of state Hessen (55))
• Hessen (55): remove provinces 9486 6444 6488 5893 3574 and turn them into their own state (Frankfurt)
• Württemberg (50): remove provinces 6568 3530 6542 6712 11640 and turn them into their own state (Baden)

I hope the developers take a look at these suggestions and consider them for a possible rework

 

[Zauberelefant]

Looking at https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinlandbesetzung_(1936)#/media/Datei:Occupation_of_the_Rhineland.png
Hoi4 has it quite right, the correct provinces are in the DMZ.

On your suggestions for province Exchange between states of Hessen and Moselland: the province in Question, Mainz, belonged to Hessen until 1945 and as a local, I oppose the transfer to Moselland. It's simply inaccurate to move it to Moselland. Granted, that makes post WW2 occupation Impossible, but I guess that the game is over and won by then, anyway.
Same goes for the northern states in the DMZ.
Northrine Westfalia includes all provinces north of Moselland. Again, ahistorical natural french borders do not work here.
A Frankfurt state does not make sense at all, as the city is east of the Rhine and was always part of Hessen.

And finally, Württemberg was pretty much part of the DMZ as well,except for the easternmost parts.

 

[Tadelwackel67]

Looking at https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinlandbesetzung_(1936)#/media/Datei:Occupation_of_the_Rhineland.png
Hoi4 has it quite right, the correct provinces are in the DMZ.

On your suggestions for province Exchange between states of Hessen and Moselland: the province in Question, Mainz, belonged to Hessen until 1945 and as a local, I oppose the transfer to Moselland. It's simply inaccurate to move it to Moselland. Granted, that makes post WW2 occupation Impossible, but I guess that the game is over and won by then, anyway.
Same goes for the northern states in the DMZ.
Northrine Westfalia includes all provinces north of Moselland. Again, ahistorical natural french borders do not work here.
A Frankfurt state does not make sense at all, as the city is east of the Rhine and was always part of Hessen.

And finally, Württemberg was pretty much part of the DMZ as well,except for the easternmost parts.

How about adding Mainz to the Frankfurt state? The hessian borders would still remain and the DMZ would have a better border.
And Württebmberg was nor really part of the DMZ, but most of Baden was. Therefore I proposed the Baden state.

 

[Tadelwackel67]

Here is a basic look of how this bigger DMZ could look like.
1st picutre: The DMZ
2nd Picutre: States of the DMZ (without splitting the Rheinland)
3rd Picture: States of the DMZ (with splitting the Rheinland)
In this pictures Frankfurt got 11560 to not destroy the border of Hessen and Baden got 3692 to better represent the DMZ

 

[MobiusTwo]

While you're on relatively the same topic, I think that Saarland should be a state. That way, you could open up options for France annexing and maybe even coring the province after the war.

 

[Tadelwackel67]

While you're on relatively the same topic, I think that Saarland should be a state. That way, you could open up options for France annexing and maybe even coring the province after the war.

When they add the Saarland, they could also add Eupen Malmedy and northern Schleswig.

 

[MobiusTwo]

When they add the Saarland, they could also add Eupen Malmedy and northern Schleswig.

Yes! All of those are good ideas! Germany could maybe get cores on Eupen Malmedy, and it would be nice to take a chunk of Belgium without ruining your aesthetic borders or having to worry about occupation. As for splitting Schleswig, I was always bothered that the state is so large, and that it is impossible to restore the German Empire's true borders.

 

[Tadelwackel67]

Yes! All of those are good ideas! Germany could maybe get cores on Eupen Malmedy, and it would be nice to take a chunk of Belgium without ruining your aesthetic borders or having to worry about occupation. As for splitting Schleswig, I was always bothered that the state is so large, and that it is impossible to restore the German Empire's true borders.

Let's hope that Paradox looks at these suggetions and considers them!

 

[Zauberelefant]

Looking at https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinlandbesetzung_(1936)#/media/Datei:Occupation_of_the_Rhineland.png
Hoi4 has it quite right, the correct provinces are in the DMZ.

On your suggestions for province Exchange between states of Hessen and Moselland: the province in Question, Mainz, belonged to Hessen until 1945 and as a local, I oppose the transfer to Moselland. It's simply inaccurate to move it to Moselland. Granted, that makes post WW2 occupation Impossible, but I guess that the game is over and won by then, anyway.
Same goes for the northern states in the DMZ.
Northrine Westfalia includes all provinces north of Moselland. Again, ahistorical natural french borders do not work here.
A Frankfurt state does not make sense at all, as the city is east of the Rhine and was always part of Hessen.

How about adding Mainz to the Frankfurt state? The hessian borders would still remain and the DMZ would have a better border.
And Württebmberg was nor really part of the DMZ, but most of Baden was. Therefore I proposed the Baden state.

Got the Baden/Württemberg thing, yes, you're right there.
Having Mainz in the Hessen/Frankfurt state precludes the province from getting french annexed or the french border reaching the Rhine. That is a Situation where no solution seems satisfying.

 

[Zauberelefant]

While you're on relatively the same topic, I think that Saarland should be a state. That way, you could open up options for France annexing and maybe even coring the province after the war.

But Saarland would be a single province state. Province north of Saarbrücken is Trier area, to the east is Kaiserlautern/Westpfalz.

 

[Tadelwackel67]

But Saarland would be a single province state. Province north of Saarbrücken is Trier area, to the east is Kaiserlautern/Westpfalz.

There always is the option tuo turn Mainz into a one province state, but that wont happen I think

 

[Zauberelefant]

There always is the option tuo turn Mainz into a one province state, but that wont happen I think

There's the Problem: we would need both Saarland and Mainz as single province states.
Or the Option in peace conference to move provinces between states.

 

[Tadelwackel67]

There's the Problem: we would need both Saarland and Mainz as single province states.
Or the Option in peace conference to move provinces between states.

That's why I think that they would just leave Mainz as is. It doesn't really ruin the borders completely. I would rather see the Saarland as a sate than Mainz tbh.

 

[Zauberelefant]

That's why I think that they would just leave Mainz as is. It doesn't really ruin the borders completely. I would rather see the Saarland as a sate than Mainz tbh.

Well, you wanted french 'natural borders', and that's the Rhine.
The bigger issue would be that parts of Mainz are on the right hand side of the River...

 

[Tadelwackel67]

Well, you wanted french 'natural borders', and that's the Rhine.
The bigger issue would be that parts of Mainz are on the right hand side of the River...

Sadly, there is no proper soloution for this problem at the moment, maybe Paradox will find one

 

[Voigt]

I think atleast Baden could be added as a state and included in the DMZ, just so that Germany doesn't have a militarized border with France anymore.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Just a reminder, the AI isn't capable of dealing with a border that's 100% behind a DMZ. They will still assign an army for it, but the said army will just sit still with the error "no path to target" instead of at least try to approach the DMZ

 

[blahmaster6k]

My view is that states in HoI4 are not meant to be one-to-one representations of states in real life. I can only really make references to the USA, since that's the only country whose geography I know perfectly, but what in game is represented as the single state of "New England" is in reality, and always has been, the six states of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island. I don't think that German states need to be 100 percent accurate to the states that exist in real life either, as long as accurate country/DMZ borders are able to be achieved for various scenarios.

 

[Zauberelefant]

My view is that states in HoI4 are not meant to be one-to-one representations of states in real life. I can only really make references to the USA, since that's the only country whose geography I know perfectly, but what in game is represented as the single state of "New England" is in reality, and always has been, the six states of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island. I don't think that German states need to be 100 percent accurate to the states that exist in real life either, as long as accurate country/DMZ borders are able to be achieved for various scenarios.

That's the crux, my US friend. While making up New England wouldn't affect any borders ever, the rhine Border and zones of occupation post WW2 are a bit relevant. Fulda Gap can only be in... Fulda, y'know?
Not to take away from this, but people here passionatly have argued here for obscure 30km² map changes for a Spot i've never heard of because of a treaty from 1927 and an occupation by a third rate Axis power in 1941...

 

[blahmaster6k]

That's the crux, my US friend. While making up New England wouldn't affect any borders ever, the rhine Border and zones of occupation post WW2 are a bit relevant. Fulda Gap can only be in... Fulda, y'know?
Not to take away from this, but people here passionatly have argued here for obscure 30km² map changes for a Spot i've never heard of because of a treaty from 1927 and an occupation by a third rate Axis power in 1941...

I'm not advocating for moving state borders so much as splitting up states so that there are more possibilities. AFAIK the post WW2 zones of occupation aren't possible to make accurately anyway in vanilla.